Zaptera

[c0mp13x]

I almost got excited reading about all this... except that when the SEC reports stuff like this below, how can you trust anything Zap/Zaptera/Jonway says?

From AutoBlog Green: ZAP incurred net losses attributable to ZAP of $40.8million, $19.0 million, and $11.3 million for years ended December 31, 2011, 2010 and 2009, respectively and has had net losses in each quarter since its inception. Jonway incurred net losses of $ 10.2 million and $445,000 for the years ended December 31, 2011 and 2010.

Ultimately... show me the money, or I'll believe it when I see multiples of a real production vehicle for sale...

[Grendal]

Originally Posted by c0mp13x

I almost got excited reading about all this... except that when the SEC reports stuff like this below, how can you trust anything Zap/Zaptera/Jonway says?

Well, they say they are not the same company. As far as I'm concerned they can say anything they want.

Originally Posted by c0mp13x

Ultimately... show me the money, or I'll believe it when I see multiples of a real production vehicle for sale...

Agreed. We're in the same boat we were in when PBW came onboard. A tremendous idea with little to nothing to show for it.

I wouldn't put any reservation money down unless you plan on losing it. The better strategy would be to wait until there are produced vehicles with price tags on them.

Originally Posted by randyd

Given the above, and the assumption that some of the PP mules are still around, they could choose to build either.

Given that SO-1 is already in China, I think they will build the SO-1.

Given that they showed off the SO-1 at the Beijing Car Show then I'd have to agree with you. Someone could call Rick and ask him, I suppose.

[palmer_md]

Put one in the showroom in Santa Rosa with a for sale sign on it, and I'll take a look. I won't be putting any deposits down with this company, but if they build it....

[dfbvt]

Matthew

Thank you so much for bringing this information to us Aptera Diehards who are still hanging on to this Forum. What ever ends up happening with the Zaptera, many of us are just glad to know what happened to the car. We felt that strongly about the design. A few of my humble thoughts:

From listening to them, they have obviously looked at each part of the manufacturing process and made decisions what could be best done in China and what processes should remain in the US. There is a concrete plan and they are doing their best to avoid Aptera's previous fate. You can't ask for more than them learning from the past mistakes of others.

Very true! But I hope they know what all of the mistakes are and are able to address at least the worst of them. For Instance, let us look at one of your comments that you made on your web site.

I simple found the information about the possibly troubled handing online. It only mentioned that one specific lane change test during the X Prize competition and there seemed to be some discussion at the time that the car's suspension hadn't been properly set up for that test. No bearing on the handling of the final car. Have also read great things about the car's comfort.

The incident that you are referring to turn out to be probably one of the most Ionic moments of the whole X. prize. It took the Aptera team over 40 tries to make it through this portion of the test. Unfortunately, on one of the last tests, the door flew wide open on the driver side. And of course it was caught on film and that picture has become one of the pictures that seems to surface over and over again.

I will say that there are many very technically astute and capable members of this forum who are able to deduce more or less why this happened just from information we have been able to glean in the past. In broad strokes, when the former CEO went and redesigned the whole car from the original designs, a lot of weight was added to the car. This had several profound and negative impacts. The first of course was with all the extra weight they could not get the efficiencies of the lighter designs of the earlier prototypes. This of course is not the most important issue. It just would be nice if they are able to get some of the weight out and improve the efficiency.

However, the more serious problem was that much of the extra weight was moved more towards the rear of the car which very negatively impacted the handling of the car. I know that this is contradictory to your statement

...the car's suspension hadn't been properly set up for that test. No bearing on the handling of the final car.

[IMG][/IMG]

I know this is what you were told and there is no question that they did manage to improve the handling but in my humble and very concerned opinion, they (former owners) did not adequately addressed the true underlining problems which are just basic mass and dynamic design issues.

There certainly are many other issues about why this happened but if Zaptera builds cars the same way that the X. prize car was built, then it is my opinion that they will run into some inferior handling aspects which could be fairly serious in certain situations.


I have no idea how this information could be brought to their attention but in my heart, I cannot feel right about NOT SAYING some thing about this serious situation. People could get hurt or worse.

Who knows what will eventually happen, but I am very positive about the future of the project after our visit to their booth.

I'm very glade to hear you say this. The Aptera design concept was/is a brilliant idea that we all hope will actually see the light of day.

Once again, I thank-you for your postings on this Forum and we hope we will be able to hear more from you in the future.

Dave Bowles

[NeilBlanchard]

To reiterate what David has said, the emergency lane change maneuver was (in all likelihood) a result of too much weight to the rear -- the Cg was wrong for a 3 wheeled car. And yes, it should have been tested and tested hard *before* going to the X-Prize.

The weight is a Catch 22 -- the car became heavier, and required more battery to maintain the range, and then this meant that the battery had to be placed more to the rear to have space, and this moved the Cg too far back.

[dfbvt]

Wow Neil!

That is picture I have never seen before but it certainly shows the big, heavy battery pack located pretty near the rear wheel just like we have been speculating.

Thanks for posting this picture and your technical clarifications.

Dave Bowles

[Grendal]

And to clarify, the 10 kWh pack needed for the lightweight PP series weighs in at 200 lbs. The 24 kWh pack needed for the overweight SO-1 weighs in at 440 lbs.

440 lbs. sitting behind the seats puts the vehicle's center of gravity too far back and causes the large sway/off balance issue.

[G-Jet]

damn thing was overweight. not by 50 pounds or 100...but a hell of alot more. duh. said it then, say it again. they never kept tabs on the weight and couldn't figure out why the handling was jacked. cg vs. ce. well done resume queens from detroit. well done indeed. and to find the fruits being sold to such esteemed business icons as zap. too funny.

G

[dfbvt]

Thanks Jeff for the added detailed information.

Another way to look at it is that the added 240 pounds is about 10% of the total empty weight of the car and it was placed in a bad location. And since the initial target weight of the original car was 1800 lbs the SO-1 was 600 pounds heaver. That makes the SO-1 overweight by a third. And so it goes...

I hope our comments are heard by the right people and that they will actually "listen" and act on them for a change. Wow! Did I just say that?

Dave Bowles

[PatQ562]

It would be a huge confidence builder if the new owners would read and respond to issues raised in this forum. The old Aptera's total stonewalling of the fan base was one of the many destructive policies that eroded support. Modern companies will assign a public representative to participate in social media.

Neil's picture of the SO-1 underpinnings explains where the weight came in and where the streamlining went. What a clumsy looking kludge of square steel tubes and wind-catching protrusions (I guess I see the fairing laying below, but still...). I beg to differ with dfbvt's comment that efficiency is a side issue; a car as radical as the Aptera will only appeal to technogeeks until it has proven itself, and we all know "the car of tomorrow" has to use LOTS less energy.

Unfortunately, China does not have a track record of building "lightness and strength" in their automobiles. The various platforms adapted for EV use (Wheego, Triac, etc) are all heavy pigs. There are a few visionaries in China but the Aptera form factor is not well suited for China's mainstream market and therefore, said visionaries would need to have their eyes firmly on the US commuter market.

I will stand with the comment "no dough till I see them routinely for sale in the showroom", and frankly my interest went down with the SO-1 and I'm not expecting much if any improvement.

Pat Q