Home Solar Panel Systems

[garygid]

You can describe your Home Solar Power system so that
we can learn from your experience.

vancky,
The solar panels do not do much for you at night.
Are you also connected to the power grid?
If so, can you feed back into the grid and get credit for it?
What are your system's components?
What are the good features, and what things to avoid?

Thanks, Gary

[IrnShrpzIrn]

Gary,

I've been looking into purchasing a solar system. I'm still about a year away from doing so (saving up).

Here are a few good sites to visit:

Grid-tie systems at a decent price: http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html
California Solar Initiative: http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/csi/index.html
Calculate your rebate: http://www.csi-epbb.com/

To answer your question about getting credit for feeding back into the grid, the answer is yes. However, the utilities are not required to pay out for this credit; you'll have to use that energy credit to take advantage of it. See the Q/A below.

Q. Why can't the utility pay me if I generate more electricity than I can use during this one-year period?

A. California's net metering law doesn't require the utilities to do so. See Public Utilities Code 2827.

Source: http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/csi/faqs.html

[Aptera1171]

Just an FYI on my PV system in case anyone is interested...

Our annual electric use was about 9,000 kwh before installing the system. We are a family of 3 in a 5 year hold house in Fresno. Our adult son had the heart problem and needs it cool during the summer, so with the solar panels we've been very liberal on the A/C (like 68-70 instead of 73-74). Anyway, we've used about 10% more electric since putting it in. For the year 2007, we consumed a total of about 10,000 kwh. We generated about 7,600 kwh and paid PG&E for 2,640 kwh ($315.95). I estimate that this saved us about $1,200 for the year. Energy rates are based on tiers. The panels keep us at the bottom tier, so we're always paying the lowest rate per kwh.

The system was $22,000, less $7,500 in state rebates and $2,000 in federal income tax rebate, or $12,500 net. It is rated at 2.7 kwh. The panels have a 25 year warranty and the AC/DC inverter a 10 year warranty (it costs abut $2,000 to replace and they normally last 15 years or so). It's attached to the roof and will need to be temporarily removed when the roof needs replacing, costing about $2,000.

It's a small system (18 panels) and will pay for itself in about 9-10 years. There seemed to be a sweet spot at the 2.7 kwh level. More than that required a much more expensive inverter.

Some of the new housing developments in Fresno are now giving away PV systems for free to entice people to buy. But the panels are not all facing south, so they won't be as efficient as ours (which is performing above the estimates we were provided).

I hose the dust off of the panels a couple of times a month (which immediately results in about 200 more watts being generated). Other than that, there is no maintenance.

I like how the net meter is easy to read and I'm able to calculate cost anytime I want (12 cents per kwh used). The temperature in Fresno in July and August usually has 10-15 days in a row of over 100 degrees. I used to try to save AC so hard during those hot spells. Not anymore. Now I occasionally ask my son to turn the AC off because it's getting too cold in the house.:happy0025:

Charging the Aptera should also be completed at the lowest price tier, keeping the Aptera running on cheap electric. I can't wait for the day!:aptera:

This thread is getting off topic for Aptera -- could one of the admins move it as appropriate? Thanks.

[2258]

Assuming you bought this 18 panel 2.6 KW system solely for charging the Aptera, would it be enough to fully charge the car from empty if it were under ideal conditions South facing full sunny day etc...?

[KarenRei]

What's your capacity factor?

Assuming a derate factor of 0.75 and a charger efficiency of 0.93, and assuming you need the full 10kWh (120 miles) every day (you'd really drive that much?), you'd need a 22% capacity factor. Which is pretty high for a flat plate, but possible.

[deanwvu]

Hey all,

This thread got me interested in adding solar panels to my home. I am looking for good investments, as I do have a chunk of cash laying around at the moment...


I use an average of 1600 Kwh a month. Around 1100 on an easy month (like last month, barely used any HVAC at all), and up to 2000 on a rough month. How much would a system like that cost now?


Anyone ever want to wait for a cheaper solution, like the NANOSOLAR (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/flat/bown/2007/green/item_59.html), when it becomes available to residents, of course. Seems like this stuff is so cheap you could just layer it on every sun-touching surface of your home!


The panels you got, 1171, do they need to be regularly cleaned to maintain efficiency?

[deanwvu]

Also, a general question:


When a system is "rated" at 2.7 Kwh, what does that mean?? Per month? How much direct sunlight is that number assuming per day?

[garygid]

A solar system is usually not rated in terms of kWh, but in kW ...
the power that the system might produce (and the controller can
process) when the solar array is very "well lighted" with sunshine.

A 3 kW array of panels (might be 0.180 kW per panel) and a
2 kW DC to AC inverter/controller will be limited to producing
only the 2 kW of power that the controller can provide.
However, if the array is not well lit, or shaded, and it is only
producing 1 kW of power, the controller will be unable to produce
its full output, and maybe only 900 watts will come out.

Estimates of local sunshine hours and strengths, placement of the
solar panels, etc., can lead to approximations of the energy (kWh)
that might be produced in a month (a normal billing cycle from the
power company) during summer and winter.

If a 3 kWh system, perhaps in the southwest, were sufficiently lighted
for 10 hours each day for 30 days, that could be 3 x 10 x 30 = 900 kWh
of energy produced in that 30-day period.

The same system, in Seattle, might get "enough" sunshine to operate
the system only an average of an hour a day, and placement and local
shading might make that only 50% effective, so 3 x 1 x 30 x 0.5 = 45 kWh.

I suspect that some of the "controller" systems need to have
some minimum DC input voltage from the solar array to work at all.
For example, the controller might only produce output (usable) power
when the input voltage from the solar array is 60 to 300 volts.

[KarenRei]

I had an earlier post that got eaten when I tried to submit it, but Gary said basically the same thing as it did, so no need to rewrite it :)

If you want to get a rough estimate of how much power a given system will produce in your area, you can try one of the many online solar calculators. This one also does economics calculations based on your inputs:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/insolation/

As for Nanosolar, their capacity is being gobbled up my municipal plants as fast as they can produce it. Solar demand is really outstripping supply right now, and probably will continue to do so for quite a while. While some of the CIGS companies can produce cells that are profitable to sell at $1/W, until supply can catch up, prices are going to be higher than that.

[Aptera1171]

Wow, several comments on my post!:jumping0007:

I'm not a solar techie, but what Gary and Karen said sound familiar from the documents I received when I got into the system. They had tables showing the normal numbber of days sunshine in our area and a factor for how many hours sun per average day. They looked over our pre-solar electric bills for past usage, then used all this info to determine that this size system was the best for us.

This is a long term investment and the numbers need to make sense. Your usage is tracked monthly, but you pay annually. PG&E calls this "true-up billing." Our "baseline" allowance last month was 459 kwh. If we used more than this, we would have bumped into the next higher price tier. We actually used 21 kwh of PG&E's power, way below baseline. Also, we do get billed monthly (and pay monthly) the government fees that everyone who uses PG&E's power pays. This is $4.44 per month for us. The idea isn't to make your annual electric bill zero because you won't get a check at the end of the year if you get into negative numbers. Just keep your PG&E usage within baseline each month.

You're right about rating at 2.7 kw, not kwh. The DC/AC converter shows the number of watts being produced by the system in realtime. I've never seen it higher then about 2750 watts, or about 2.7kw. The inverter will max out at 2800 watts. On a good day (clear sun for a long time), it will make about 35 kwh (for the day).

I look at it simply by what appliances do to the system. With no appliances running, the difference between the solar output shown on the inverter and what is being sent back to the grid - shown on the PG&E meter - will be about 500-600 watts. So, I figure our house consumes this much with everything (TV's, computers, etc) in standbye mode. I can easily see the results of running the microwave, clothes dryer, air conditioning, or other appliances. It's a real eye-opener.

The system also points out the effect of smog. We're in Fresno and often receive the smog blown in from other parts of the state. On declared "bad air" days, our solar may only max out at 2,200 watts, even though it is hot and sunny. Add a little breeze to clear away the smog and it will jump back to 2,600-2,700. This is the same with dirt on the panels. Our housing tract is next to unused farm land, so a lot of dirt gets on the panels. Even a little dirt on the panels will cut production by 10-15%. Standing on a ladder and hosing down the panels immediately brings it back up again.

Gary, you discuss input voltage. The inverter also shows a voltage number (typically 250-325 or so). I've tried to find a corelation between this number and watts produced, but I've never figured this out. All I know is that if the voltage number gets outside of this range (like when the sun is sinkng, but not completely down), the system goes into a standby mode and stops producing power.

I'm thinking (hoping) that the electricity used by the Aptera will still keep us in the "baseline" useage and keep us paying the lowest tier price. I don't know what the Aptera will take (including our Aptera driving habits), but I'm guessing we'll stay in the lowest tier.

Finally, I like the fact that our system has the effect of taking one ICE car off the road in terms CO2 emissions, or so we've been told.

[3wheelingfreek]

Here is a good read. It is outdated but sort of touches on how things can get messy. A battle between Ken Adelmans' photovoltaic system and PG&E whom:fighting0003: went as far as to dispatched work crews to disconnect the system from the grid - Get this-- Because It was generating to much power!!!!


http://www.solarwarrior.com/


Another great quote from Kens Sight:

- I've always been a big proponent of nuclear energy, I just don't want it in my backyard. 93 million miles away seems like the right distance.

[vancky]

:aptera: Wow, I just ran into this thread.

I just insatlled a 27 panel system here in Tierrasanta San Diego. I am blown away with its performance. I have an ideal roof that faces directly south and is sloped at 18 degrees. My performance is something to behold. I take readings on my two (2) SDG&E meters every morning and evening. Yeaterday I had a great day with 38 Kwh for the day. Today was bad due to cloud cover but I still generated 9Kwh. My inverter is a unit by Sunpower a product built in Germany. It is a 6000 watt inverter. My company was Clean Power Systems in Poway Ca. They are an excelent company and when I was communicating with SDG&E they said Clean Power System was the best. As of today my system has produced 4 MegaWatts of power. It went into service 17 Jan 2008. So far I have received billing for $81 and a credit of $89. Half of the power I produce goes back into the grid. At true up time which happens Jan 31, 2009 I will loose what ever excess I have sent back to grid. Yet they are selling my power to my neighbors! Sounds like a class action suit by me next year. My total investment including a 9K power panel upgrade and new service put underground was $58,000.00. I received $12K from state of CA and $2K from federal.

I would be happy to give a tour of my system to anyone interested. I can be reached at mmiller3@san.rr.com . I have pages of records of energy produced by my system.

The DC voltage suplied to my inverter is around 350 volts DC. I can hear the relays clicking in the inverter at sunrise. 5:40 am this morning.

This is my main reason for buying an Aptera so I can drive around San Diego free!

Bill:rolleye0003:

[garygid]

vancky,
Thanks for all the details, that was very helpful.

The Solar System Calculator linked to by the Clean Power
Systems web site is also very helpful.
It shows that if I do not install the panels laying flat on my roof,
but tilt them up an extra 5 or 10 degrees (and provide extra
space between them to allow for the shadows), I get more power.

At the current pricing, it seems to take (in my case) around 20
years for a 6kw system to pay for itself. So, still quite expensive,
at almost $10 per watt installed.

Each Aptera 1e might add as much as 10 kWh x 30 = 300 kWh
per month to my current usage. On the average, maybe half that.

[KarenRei]

The optimal angle for solar panels, in general, is equivalent to your latitude. If you're at the equator, they should point straight up. If you were at the North Pole, they should point at 90 degrees. If you're at 45 degrees latitude, they should be at a 45 degree angle, and so on.

[organic]

Check out these guys http://www.fatspaniel.com/ Have some nice gear that allows you to keep tabs on your system. Up here in SF Bay Solar City does most of the installs. http://www.solarcity.com/

[gistmarrs]

We have the fatspaniel system here at work keeping track of our system. We have thin film, single chrystaline, multi chrystaline, and four tracking arrays. Fatspaniel gives us the information on the output by hour, day, month, etc. We are going to be installing a wind turbine in a few months and will have the fatspaniel track it also.

[vancky]

garygid,

The power rating of my PV system is 4.999 Kw. The inverter is made by Sunny Boy a Germen Corp. The research I have done on inverters shows that the xnatrax (spelling) inverters have a higher failure rate. The Sunny Boy inverter has SunPower's name on it.

My system is close to exceeding the power that I buy from SDG&E. I have drawn 2040 Kwh from SDG&E and I have sent 2010 Kwh back to grid. The system sizeing for my usage was figured perfectly. I was using about 28.6Kw per day running a 2 HP pool motor 4 hours per day. Now I run my pool pump between 11AM and 3PM and it runs for free. My meter runs backwards even with all my loads running. I have two refers. On overcast days I don't let my pump come on.

I have observed on partly cloudy days when the shadows are crossing my array a large spike of power sometimes over 6200 watts. This is due to the panels being cool. They produce more when cool.

Take a look at this web site from Clean Power Systems. www.NoEletricBill.com

When you look at the cost of the system you are only spending about what a luxury car costs today. But my system is going up in value everytime the electric rate goes up. The car goes down.:(

Bill

[garygid]

it is http://www.noelectricbill.com/ (you missed a "c")

But, great info, thanks.
Which model of Sunny Boy?
What panels?

[vancky]

My inverter is the SPR-6000m. It also displays how much CO2 I have prevented from going into the air over 7000 lbs so far.

[garygid]

What is the main difference between the "m" and the "x" models?

[vancky]

Have no idea.:confused:

[JoeReal]

The California State rebates for solar PV is going down each time a solar PV is installed. Here's the table to assess the exact rebate you are going to get depending on what step capacity is your utility is found here:

sgip-ca (sorry, I can't post links as a first timer so place the www and the dot com)

Right now, being PG&E residential customer, we are in step 4 with 15.60 MW remaining for that step allocated to PG&E, statewide, there has been 190 MW peak capacity of installed PV. Thus the rebate for residential is $1.90/watt. As more PV's are installed, we will move to step 5 when 160 MW of peak PV capacity has been installed and the subsidy(rebate) would have gone down to $1.55/watt. Step 6, it would have gone down to $1.10/watt.

The Federal Rebate remains at $2,000 per single family home.

The reason why I mention this is to provide you a better accurate analysis of your bottom line, from your own point of view, and not from the inflated numbers presented to you by various solar installers.

I have been looking closely at solar PV and have calculated that none of the solar PV companies doing the complete system installation will be able to justify the costs in terms of generated electricity. It means to my bottom line that the total cost of producing electricity remained higher than the utility's billing charges over the life span of the PV, even after realistically considering that the prices of electricity will increase.

The calculations are not straight forward. One has to be financially savy with the calculations. The solar PV is a major investment. In most cases, I would be better off putting that amount of money in a good portfolio and will be able to payoff all the electric bills by just the interest earned. So installing PV could be a financial blackhole.

Most solar PV companies would paint an excellent picture of inflated ROI's. That is only true according to their very optimistic assumptions. The fact is, the more realistic your assumptions are, the better off will be your decision making in judging the feasibility of solar PV.

[JoeReal]

Here's the realistic data or assumptions that you should use or should find out and use them in the feasibility calculations:

Average California utility price inflation: 2.35%/year compounded
we will have to expect that prices of utility increases and the above value I have calculated from real data but cannot show the link currently due to being a newbie, but will show it later
Realistic APR financing : 7.50%
a bit high you might say, in these troubled times when home equity is being outlawed, you are lucky if someone is going to finance you at this rate. The days of 4.99% APR for a non-home big item is now over, but if you do found one, contact me.
How much is your total yearly electric bills before the PV installation? Or How much energy in kWH did you consume?

Then you should get the important technical specifications from your PV company such as
Total system cost before rebates
What is the rated watt capacity for rebate purposes (see in the link I mentioned in previous post, right now it is at about $1.90/watt but could vary with your utility and county)
What is the estimated amount of energy produced, in kWH, from the pV system for a year?
Life Span of PV
What is the performance degradation of your system per year and at end of life span? The PV will have degraded efficiency through the years and will not produce the same amount of electricity as when you first installed it, so you end up getting more from utility in later years when the prices of electricity has already compounded.
What is the yearly maintenance cost, including amortized cost of replacing the inverter before the life span of the PV, and place some yearly maintenance value of manual labor for the time to hose off or clean your PV to keep them at their maximum possible power.
What are the risks or chances of hails and other calamities that can break your PV or what is the insurance rate against the damages to your PV system?


One should never consider that it will increase the value of your home as it is tangential to your feasibility analysis. Your aim is to calculate your total cost of electricity production, not home equity, as it would only count if you are selling your home. Also, no one would buy your PV system before rebate as you could not buy a car, apply rebate and sell it off at a price before rebate.

If you have accounted for these realistic assumptions, and comes out positive at the end or before the end of the life span of your PV, then and only then should you decide to go ahead for it. That is, of course, if your only consideration is the financial bottom line.

As for my current needs, considering all the above assumptions, my break even point for installing PV is if I can get a price lower than $4.11/watt before rebate or $2.62/watt after rebate.

Know of any company that is willing to install PV for less than $2.62/Watt after rebate?

But there is hope yet. Within the next 2 to 3 years, the thin film solar companies such as Nanosolar would have brought the retail costs down to $2/watt, if the $ doesn't get devalued. Within two to three years, there will be an oversupply of silicon, and a shakeout in the solar PV companies. So prices are going to come down and the subsidies wouldn't matter as it will cost below the break even point.

And most of all, hopefully by then, the Aptera would be in full production mode.

[JoeReal]

now that I have slightly upgraded member status, here are the links:

California Solar Rebates Trigger Point Tracker:
http://www.sgip-ca.com/

And here's the data of average retail prices of electricity from 1990 to 2007, all States of the US, very useful to estimate average price inflation:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/sales_revenue.xls

[KarenRei]

Very good points all around, Joe. From playing around with the economics calculator:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/insolation/

You can see that it's quite hard to get payback with current solar panel prices. Drop the prices just a dollar or so per watt, however, and it becomes rather easy. Drop it to $1/W, like the CIGS manufacturers do, and it can be profitable even in Alaska. :)

[JoeReal]

Karen, Thanks for the compliments. I agree about the current pricing, they're crazy.

But if I were to install them (I can do roof tiles easy), and hire a certified electrician for wiring to the grid, then it will be feasible for me. But none of the companies are giving me the pricing they give to their subcontractors. I am tempted to be a subcontractor, but that would take a lot of time.

The reason that my break-point is around $2.62/watt is that I am in the higher tiered pricing (plus other calculations details) and wouldn't want to be pushed into the next level. For people in the lower tiered level, it really doesn't make financial sense for them to go solar PV with today's pricing. Perhaps when the $1/watt PV becomes a reality, then vast majority will be able to go solar PV.

[JoeReal]

Very good points all around, Joe. From playing around with the economics calculator:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/insolation/



Thanks for the detailed calculations on your economics calculator. I will add that to my bookmarks. :)

[vancky]

My 5Kw system just produced more power than I bought from SDG&E here in San Diego. My system came on line Jan 17, 2008 and today I have sucked 2059 Kw from the grid but I have pushed back 2074 Kw onto the grid.

I made my decision to go PV because I was tired of paying over $175.00 average per month to the utility and not having anything to show for it. Now they are off my back and I am happy to see my meter going backwards during the day.

Now if only I could collect the money that my power is supplying to the neighbors because I will lose any excess power I have produced at "true up time" next January 31, 2009.

If anybody knows a good class action lawyer let me know.

I belive I have made a good investment. I got an excelent loan at 6 percent for the install and all the rebates went back to the bank so my balance is not to bad. I actually have a positive cash flow on my system of around $45 per month.

By the way how do I do a spelling check with this forum?

Bill

[JoeReal]

My 5Kw system just produced more power than I bought from SDG&E here in San Diego. My system came on line Jan 17, 2008 and today I have sucked 2059 Kw from the grid but I have pushed back 2074 Kw onto the grid.

I made my decision to go PV because I was tired of paying over $175.00 average per month to the utility and not having anything to show for it. Now they are off my back and I am happy to see my meter going backwards during the day.

Now if only I could collect the money that my power is supplying to the neighbors because I will lose any excess power I have produced at "true up time" next January 31, 2009.

If anybody knows a good class action lawyer let me know.

I belive I have made a good investment. I got an excelent loan at 6 percent for the install and all the rebates went back to the bank so my balance is not to bad. I actually have a positive cash flow on my system of around $45 per month.

By the way how do I do a spelling check with this forum?

Bill

Bill,

How much is your system installation before and after rebates?
A positive cash flow will only happen IF and ONLY IF, you have accounted for all costs.

Sample components of Cost:
1) Monthly mortgage Payment, finance charge plus principal OR finance Charges plus depreciation if you consider the PV part as an asset, so it gets depreciated to get fair share of cost.
2) Monthly added insurance premium to cover the PV. You should insure your PV as part of your home, like for example, God forbid, in the event of fire, the PV goes along with it, then it will be recouped with insurance as well. It is a major investment that needs to be insured. If it is not considered, it won't be replaced, and that would be a big risk. If you insure your house, then you insure the PV system likewise.
3) Monthly money set aside towards replacement of inverter down the road.

Then your Revenue would be
Your tiered price times the kWH generated of your PV. The tiered price is based upon your consumption when you did not include the kWH generated from your PV.

Then your cash flow would be Revenue minus Cost (sum of 1,2,3 above). Is it still positive?

Joe

[Aptera1171]

Another possible benefit is the value the PV system adds to your house, should you decide to sell. I don't know any actual examples, but I've been told that you *may* recoup the entire cost of the system when you sell your house.

Also note that, at least in California, while the value of the property increases, your property tax bill does not increase. Home PV systems are exempt from property tax. (I'm saying this from my own personal experience, you may want to check this yourself if you are considering a system.)

Another cost would be removal and reinstallation when you have your roof replaced, if your system is located on the roof. I've been quoted $2,000 for this work.

[garygid]

Electrical power charges just went up here (May first, 2008), from
$0.05734 to $0.09887 per kWh for the power itself.

With a "home" Base Allowance of only 309 kWh, one often goes into the
101-130%, 131-200%, and even the 201-300% tier for the pricing of
the distribution charges.

The under-baseline tier is now only $0.02670 per kWh, down from
$0.06656 which helps offset some of the energy rise. But it paves the
way for the energy rate to stay high, and for SDG&E to get the state
to allow higher distribution rates in the future. Also, the 131-200% tier
just dropped slightly from $0.12577 to $0.11510 per kWh. However, the
over 200% tier went up from 13.459 to 13.917 cents per kWh.

So, (at these rates, which will assuredly climb) it looks like my Aptera
charging would (now) be at at almost 24 cents per kWh.
One full 10 kWh charge, with only 10% "waste", now looks something
like 11 x 0.24 = $2.64 for a full "100" mile (freeway-speed driving) charge.

If one uses the 1e a lot every day, it could be 300 kWh additional
per month, or about 300 x 0.24 = $72 a month extra on the bill for
the approximately 30 x 100 = 3000 miles of driving of the Typ-1e.

At the next-Christmas (estimated) price of gas ($7 per gallon), that is
approximately equal to the price of one 10-gallon gas tank full-up
(150 to 350 miles of driving in "average" cars).

[daddio]

7.7kw System, but our state rounds up to 8.0 kw for the amount of Solar Renewable Energy Credits (SRECs) we can sell each year. I don't go crazy trying to get the top dollar so only sold them at $255 per kW this year. Next year the penalties for power companies not producing electric power from renewable resource will increase so we anticipate the SREC to jump to ~$711/kW.
So some specs on my three year old system:
44 PV panel x 175 (max) output/panel = 7.7kW
I have three years of experience with my system.N o maint. performed. No preventive maint. suggested. You can rinse panels if you wish.
Original owner installed on a new roof covering 600 sf of a S/SW facing direction with no trees/etc to deplete output. Angle of roof/panels keep panel clean. I never rinse. Snow slides off on its own....
Since the panels stand-off the roof shingles ~ 6" it provides shade/air circulation between the panel/roof shingle... keeping the attic cooler/reducing the sun damage to the roof material.
http://picasaweb.google.com/daddio54/PVPhotoVoltaicSOLAR


The other contributor on this thread provides most of the many other "details" accurately with typical warranties and expected life span etc.

No additonal cost to my Home Owners Insurance. Just listed the investment on my policy.

I have no homeowners association to worry about for permission. Local permits required for installation.

Equity increase? Basically $20,000 for ever $1,000 reduction in annual operating costs from energy efficiency. If this is true (I don't plan to sell).. my out of pocket cost will have been returned. I save all my monthly "negative bills" for proof
Of course it this is true you still need to factor in the real estate market.
Like having a pool... Would the next buyer want it?
Would a buyer (uneducated in its simplicity) be afraid of this system. With more systems be installed people will become educated.

If you just want a system installed, with no worries, and only an agreed low electric rate there are companies like citizenre.com, and others starting up. But I have no experience with these newer programs.

Good Luck in your life adventures!

[JoeReal]

Another possible benefit is the value the PV system adds to your house, should you decide to sell. I don't know any actual examples, but I've been told that you *may* recoup the entire cost of the system when you sell your house.

Also note that, at least in California, while the value of the property increases, your property tax bill does not increase. Home PV systems are exempt from property tax. (I'm saying this from my own personal experience, you may want to check this yourself if you are considering a system.)

Another cost would be removal and reinstallation when you have your roof replaced, if your system is located on the roof. I've been quoted $2,000 for this work.

You would only be able to recoup the entire cost of the system in a hot housing market in a certain area, and the maximum price is only based on your actual installation cost after rebates. It declines from there, depending upon how old is the PV system.

Yes, as incentives, the PV is not included in the assessment for the purposes of property taxes. Also, the rebates are tax-free and never considered an income.


Also, when time comes when value of houses begin to rise, the price of the PV system do not rise along with it. The PV system are independently calculated based on net installation costs minus depreciation. Unless the market has changed to create sudden surge in demand and there is no more supply, then the PV system is going to increase.

But within 2-3 years, there is projected oversupply of silicon based solar cells. And with Nanosolar ramping up production of thin-film solar, the retail price could go down to $1/Watt. At the commercial scale, they are about $1/watt installed. The CIGS type solar, another thin film, is also having great efficiency achievements, like the commercial product is now at 12% to 16%, compared to 6% to 8% when they first came out, so that they can compete with silicon right now but a lot cheaper to produce. In other words, even without rebates in the next 5 years (most likely rebate money would have depleted), the price of solar could go below my break even calculation of $2.62/watt at my current tiered pricing.

Silicon oversupply worse than expected:
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/oversupply-of-silicon-worse-than-expected-947.html

Nanosolar Cheaper than Coal
http://www.celsias.com/2007/11/23/nanosolars-breakthrough-technology-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal/

So with customers like me in the wait it out game, the silicon based solar PV better be sold at less than $4.11/watt before rebate or $2.62/Watt after rebates or else suffer more losses, :)

[JoeReal]

Electrical power charges just went up here (May first, 2008), from
$0.05734 to $0.09887 per kWh for the power itself.

With a "home" Base Allowance of only 309 kWh, one often goes into the
101-130%, 131-200%, and even the 201-300% tier for the pricing of
the distribution charges.
...

Gary, my current weighed average tier is at $0.176/kWH. Electric utility rates in our area may be projected to jump between 2 to 6% next year, so it could go up 0.18 to $0.20/kWH by the time people get their Apteras.

Really really cheap with Aptera for cost of travel, assuming same priced car and life span of cars. Right now, the fuel alone is costing me $0.2325/mile (at current fuel prices). Aptera would cost: $0.015/mile (at my current tiered pricing). That's half an earthquake magnitude of a difference! A full earthquake magnitude of a difference would be possible by summer's end when the price of gasoline could possibly go beyond $7/gallon. An earthquake magnitude difference is a factor of 32 times.

[JimmyDreams]

I haven't begun to number crunch like some of you have, and I also haven't thought much about offsetting the Aptera with solar....but....

I WOULD like to put up a nice solar system on my house. If I could zero-out my grid drain, I'd be a happy camper. But even with the rebates and tax credits, its the monthly cost of the system that is keeping me in check. I haven't look at my electric bill in a while, but I'm guessing $40-50K to do what I want. THAT'S a lot to bite off right now.

But being a geek at heart, having the data that my system is producing available on my computer would be a kick in the pants. Years ago, there was no way to see what you were generating without an abacus, an EE degree, and some virgin chickens. Now, you hook your converter into an ethernet cable and all the data is right there. SWEET!!

JimmyD

[JoeReal]

JimmyD,

Yes, there are factors why residential people still install PV, but I can assure you, financial feasibility is not one of them.

Some factors, and I applaud people who really do, is that, they help finance the industry, so that finally it can develop into something more cheaply on economic scale which will benefit many people in the future. The early adopters are to be applauded for their risks and their above pricing unselfish (most know that it will be at a loss) investments into the industry.

But the satisfaction that you did your part to help make this planet greener, freedom from oil, the geeky factor, those are priceless. Way beyond any economic feasibility analysis.

So along with those early Aptera buyers, I give you my salutations!

Joe

[deanwvu]

I have heard that Nanosolar is shipping already.. but to what sort of customers?


When will we be able to order it ourselves? Or when will I be able to call my local solar install company and get Nanosolar sheets through them?

[epiphanatic]

I'm also holding out for the nanosolar sheets since it just makes more sense to do so. I wish they were available to the small consumer right now.

I just hope it's not too long since the demand for this stuff is through the roof.

[JimmyDreams]

I just hope it's not too long since the demand for this stuff is through the roof.

Actually, that's NOT what you should be hoping for. If demand is through the roof, then they'll be able to charge and arm and a leg for it.

I want lots of production with limited demand. That will keep the prices down and make going solar more affordable.

JimmyD

[epiphanatic]

What?

Please tell me in that sentence where I said that I would like for demand to be high.

Or please tell me that English is your second language.

[JimmyDreams]

What?

Please tell me in that sentence where I said that I would like for demand to be high.

Or please tell me that English is your second language.

Engrish be my first language, and thangs!!:scared0011:

Yes, I misread what you posted. It's early and I haven't had my coffee yet. That's the only excuse I can come up with!!!:(

JimmyD

[vancky]

I think everyone is looking the wrong way at solar power. I did not buy my 5Kw system to break even on cost. That will happen sometime in the future. Why do you buy a car? For transportation! I bought my PV system because I was tired of paying on average $175.00 a month to SDG&E. It’s like pouring money down a rat hole. I like the new feeling of being independent of the power company and the idea that someday I will be powering my Aptera from the sun.

I did increase my homeowners insurance to cover my system in the event of fire. It cost me an additional $102.00 per year.

Anyone figure on how long it will take to break even on the Aptera purchase? Who cares? I just want one because it is cutting technology and I can cut another apron string tying me to the gas station.:)

Bill #2292

[JoeReal]

No, we are not looking the wrong way. We are looking from a financial perspective given that we have the choice and we can compare the choices. You can do the same for Aptera.

From financial perspective, what is the total amortized payments of your PV and the cost of insurance, compare that to the retail price of electricity that it can produce.

The same way with Aptera, it is granted that you needed a vehicle for commute, it is a given. You can compare the total costs of ownership of buying an Aptera with that of buying a traditional comparable car for commuting purposes. And I believe, you'll get more payback, in the form of savings of gasoline and cost of recharging with Aptera as compared to a traditional car, but compared to comparison between PV system and electricity from utility, the PV is costing you more than it can produce or what you have saved in terms of electric bills.

And same reason with both, financial perspective is not the only criteria to consider, but it is a big criteria for me.

[oldpecan]

I'm with vancky:

If I paid $4,000 extra for an extra-efficient car to deprive Exxon of $3,000 worth of gasoline sales, then I'm financially happy. THRILLED. instant payback.

[LQUAN]

I am with you oldpecan:

So what if I may never break even on the gas saving on Aptera versus owning a Corolla or Civic or Prius. I get to own a car that I like and makes me feel good. Owning a green car is just a secondary advantage on my list. I'll pay $4000 to deprive the oil company $3000 worth of gas, too.

[JoeReal]

If at one time or another, you've been a very good loan officer or an economic analyst with technical background in the sciences, you can't help but think strongly in terms of financial analysis. Yes, as I have posted several times, that buying a car or solar PV is not based on financial analysis alone. Different people have different preferences and point of views, and differences in opinions as to what is more important in their lives. I am just sharing what it is the bottom line when it comes to financial analysis of a project, given the various alternatives.

[jstdadd]

You know, I am in San Diego and the latitude is 32deg...yet the California Solar Resources calculator says my optimal angle is 17deg off vertical...I don't see how they get there.

[garygid]

It is a compromise between summer high sun and winter low sun.

[garygid]

At this point it looks like I will have a rooftop Solar System installed.
Too dangerous for (old, not-so-flexible) me to be on the roof.

SunnyBoy SMA SB7000US Grid-based Inverter, with 33 Sharp ND-224U2
panels should, estimated to generate about 10,500 kWh AC output during
a year. I think that Solar Summit (in San Diego) will do the install.

Has anybody had any successes (or bad experiences) with these choices?

Any insight appreciated, before I sign the deal.
Thanks, Gary

[vancky]

Gary
Please look into Clean Power Systems Inc. They installed my system and I was very pleased with their skills. Everything was installed like MILSPEC. I am retired from the labortory SPAWAR in San Diego and I was very impressed with the work that CleanPower did. The equipment they used was by Sunpower who is the same as Sunnyboy. Mine is the SPR-6000 unit for the inverter. I don't know why you want that much power. My system is rated at 4.999 Kw and I am sending more that half of my power back to grid. (which is nice except I don't get paid for it YET). My monthly average power usage was 860Kw I have a pool pump that runs 4 hours a day. I now run it at 11am to 3pm each day while the sun is giving me the max. At the sametime wife is running the washing machine and the power meter is still running backwards! Check them out at www.NoElectricBill.com The inverter you are looking is the best made from Germany. My panels are also by SunPower model SPR-220. I have 27 panels with room to add 3 more if I choose to. I do not have air cond. but I may add it later. I am also thinking of changing my gas water heater to electirc to usen up my excess power.

How much morning overcast do you get in your location? Mine clears by 9 or 10am.
I have been taking power readings from my system everyday and have a very good record of power generated and sent back to grid. In the dead of winter Dec 21st 2007 I was producing 24 to 28 kw per day. Now in summer I am generating 34 to 38 kw per day.

Bill #2292e

[drivin98]

In the dead of winter Dec 21st 2007 I was producing 24 to 28 kw per day. Now in summer I am generating 34 to 38 kw per day.

Bill #2292e

Do you mean Kwh or kw? I've been wondering how many kwh a battery should be to last three days on the average house.

[garygid]

Most likely kWh, not kW.

If your house currently uses 600 kWh per month, then
20 kWh per day, and (using higher math, grin) 60 kWh in 3 days.

If you are planning to support a 3-day power outage, people usually
figure that they will cut down drastically on power usage those days,
to just keep the necessities going, like the refrigerator, the Wii and TV,
and Internet computer. They decide that they can give up doing laundry,
running the Air Conditioner, cooking, or baking on those days.

So, maybe they decide they can get by with 10 kWh per day, requiring
30 kWh. Then, considering conversion losses, and avoiding deep-cycle
discharge of the batteries, perhaps one needs 50 kWh of batteries.

That might be 10 batteries, each 24 volt 200 amp-hour.

Of course, there is also the associated electronics to consider.
Some Info:
http://ezinearticles.com/?What-Is-A-Solar-Charge-Controller?&id=1026587

Is any of this helpful to you?

[vancky]

Yes I should have stated Kwh in my last post.
Bill #2292e

[garygid]

Clean Power Systems seems to use SunPower panels, and those
specifications appear to be quite good, even extraordinary.

However, I think Sharp is more likely to still be around in 25 years
to better handle the long warranty. But, what do I know?

[wcabdefense]

In fact, Gary... you clearly know quite a bit about a large number of things. After reading posts over the last few month, I am quite sure that you would be on the short list of people I would want in my nuclear bunker if things went south. After Pam Anderson, of course. Somebody has to remember how to generate power with a bicycle and spare pennies if society will survive.

Let me know if Jeopardy calls you for a visit. I would be happy to put some money on the line in Vegas.

[jstdadd]

Dude...Pam already knows all that stuff.

[Reellucky]

Instead of a battery system, if you live in an urban area, already have natural gas service, and are concerned about the enevitable black and brown outs in California which is coming due to more and more demand, and no new power plants, look into a natural gas generator. The unit is only a little larger than an air conditioner unit and can mount on a cement pad just like an air conditioner evaporator.

I am beginning a remodel where I am installing a major solar electric system to zero out my electric bill (and charge my new aptera :) ), and the natural gas generator will kick on automatically if it senses a black or brown out. In that way, my fridge will keep cold food, my air conditioner will keep my house cool (most brown and black outs happen during high heat situations), and all my neighbors will be kicking themselves for not thinking ahead and installing one too.

[garygid]

What brand and models of natural gas generator, Solar panels,
Solar Inverter, and generator "controller" are you going to use?

Since I am on the verge of committing to a Solar System (see previous post),
I would appreciate any help, suggestions, input.

You might prefer to Message me rather than discuss it here. Thanks.

[Raiyn]

After Pam Anderson, of course.
<shudders> Make sure you've got ALL your shots.

[Vasil]

I'm considering buying one of these (http://www.powerportstore.com/Solar%20Recharging%20-%20AR.htm) for the Aptera.

[Spank Daddy]

Hey Gary,

Have you checked out these panels?

http://www.nanosolar.com

[KarenRei]

They're only available to municipal power plants at this point in time. Sort of like Aptera, they're sold out long in advance :P

[garygid]

Nanosolar technology is undisclosed and also seems
to be unavailable to consumers.
But, good suggestion, Thanks.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Here's another flexible metal PV system that can be used as roofing:

http://ovonic.com/me_images_solar_10.cfm

Stan Ovshinsky is the inventor -- he developed it back in 1983.

[vancky]

Sorry but the power you are looking at would power a portable radio, NOT your Aptera:(

Bill (vancky) #2292e

[vancky]

Garygid,

I am very confident in the brand of solar panels that I have installed on my roof. I will quote the written Warranty.

SunPower Corporation with offices at 3939 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95134 (“SunPower”) warrants that for (10) years from date of delivery, its Photovoltaic modules (“PV modules”) shall be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal application, installation, use and service conditions. If the PV modules fail to conform to this warranty, then for a period ending ten (10) years from date of delivery to the original end-customer (“the customer”), SunPower will, at its option, either repair or replace the product, or refund the purchase price as paid by the customer. Etc, etc etc……..

SunPower additionally warrants: If within twelve (12) years from date of delivery to Customer any PV module(s) exhibits a power output less that 90% of the Minimum Peak Power as specified at the date of delivery in SunPower’s datasheet..etc, etc etc…..

What I am trying to say is that the PV panels supplied by SunPower are every bit as good as Sharp and more efficient from what I read. In fact I have observed power from the panels that exceeded the rating over 229.6 watts per panel! This happened on a day that we had large fluffy clouds and the sun would come out from behind the clouds and light up my panels. I assume the the panels were cool and thus the high production of power. I was concerned about the rating of my inverter which is 6000watt. ( a SunnyBoy)

The above reading was 6200 watts and I have 27 panels. 6200/27=229.6

Bill #2292e


Bill (vancky) #2292e

[garygid]

I also think that the specs for the SunPower panels are great.
Apparently the panels are made in the Philippines.

However, the AstroPower bankruptcy and sale to GE where the
AstroPower warranties apparently became worthless makes me cautious.

Also, some of the same people associated with AstroPower
appear to be associated in some way with SunPower.

But, who really knows?

[jstdadd]

Are you going to charge your cell phone with it, or what?
http://tinyurl.com/5g8562

[jstdadd]

Reellucky:

It seems that you could go battery backup for the house, with the solar panels, and for about $10,000 you could avoid the generator. The generator, installed, will likely cost $6,000 to $7,000 to get up and running, and have more maintenance to keep it up and running, forever. At 6,000 Watts or larger, the inverter/battery backup unit/grid-tie is comparable in price to grid-tie alone (maybe 20% more). Look at the Xantrex XW series http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/25/learn.asp

However, if you are looking at a cogenerator to heat water (for dairy or pool heating or some other reason) then I could see that the cogenerator fired by Natural Gas would be more useful. I did a study on one of these for a condo complex I was a member of years ago; the electricity used would provide electricity for premise lighting, and the heat generated could heat our pool and jacuzzi.

[jstdadd]

Stan is featured in the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?", which I rented for $1.07 last weekend from BlockBuster.

Darn! I could have run my Aptera to work and back for two days for that $1.07!

[speculawyer]

At this point it looks like I will have a rooftop Solar System installed.
Too dangerous for (old, not-so-flexible) me to be on the roof.

SunnyBoy SMA SB7000US Grid-based Inverter, with 33 Sharp ND-224U2
panels should, estimated to generate about 10,500 kWh AC output during
a year. I think that Solar Summit (in San Diego) will do the install.

Has anybody had any successes (or bad experiences) with these choices?
I've built a system with a SunnyBoy before and I like that inverter. I'm working on a new system with another (but bigger) SunnyBoy & those same Sharp panels you are using . . . which brings me to: Holy crap is that a big system! Do you use a lot of AC down there? Is your stove, dryer, and/or water heater electric? If so and you have natural gas service, you might want to convert some of those heat based appliances over to natural gas since it is more efficient/economical for heating applications.

[garygid]

Only water heater and central heating are gas, all else is electric.

I averaged only 560 kWh per month last year, but this year is hotter
and I want to use the air conditioning when I want it, not just sparingly
when I really need it. Eventually, charging Aptera(s).

My min. month last year was about 360 and max. of 1360 kWh.
So, this system should more than cover all current usage, and provide
a good margin for additional use.

I will message you a phone number do we can chat better, if you are willing.
Thanks, Gary

[John O]

Check out this article (and an earlier article referenced in it) on the ROI of solar panel installations: http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=19403&bypass=1 This is from Electronic Design News' web site.

[speculawyer]

Check out this article (and an earlier article referenced in it) on the ROI of solar panel installations: http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=19403&bypass=1 This is from Electronic Design News' web site.

It is summarized pretty much by this sentence in the article:
What it comes down to is that it’s impossible to come up with a hard number for payback time,
That is the conclusion I came to when I did my first system. That one was definitely worth it since the local utility paid for a full 50% of the system's cost.

But doing ROI calculations is very difficult since it all depends on interest rates, how much your system costs to build, if you have time-dependent billing rates, what the electricity rates cost in the future (and they are going up since California is largely powered by natural gas power plants and natural gas prices are going up), etc.

From looking at my PG&E bill, if you are heavy electricity user, it will help a lot since PG&E charges at a cetain rate for a 'baseline' amount and then sharply goes up for various % amounts over the baseline.
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml

[garygid]

Well, my Solar System is on its way. Sharp ND-224U2 panels (33) and
a SunnyBoy SMA SB7000U grid-feed inverter will be used. This should
produce about a 6.5 kW (PTC) AC system.
It should get installed by sometime early in October, 2008.

We are filing papers at the CCSE for a reservation of the CSI EPBB rebate funds, and the current $2.20 per watt "tier" is currently available, but
we are rushing to get the paperwork submitted before the "tier" changes.
The next rebate "tier" is $1.90 per watt.

Does anybody know the proper way to get the $2000 Federal Tax Credit?

[thimel]

Gary,

Could you please tell us what the total installed cost will be? It is easy to find the cost of PV system parts on the web, but installed costs are hard to come by.

Thanks

[garygid]

Installed, $51,083 + CA $2,748 tax = $53,841 for everything.

If I had been able to install it myself I believe that I could have gotten all
the parts for approximately $39,000 (plus tax and about $500 for shipping).

The initial 7.4 kW DC produces about 6.53 kW PTC (AC watts), but that output
is further reduced for the calculation of the rebate by a number of factors.

The CA rebate should be about $12,478 (on 5672 watts) because I
apparently have something like a 7% or 8% Average Annual Shading Factor
and the 28-degree pitch roof faces a bit East of South (153 degrees).

Then, there is the fed tax credit of $2000.
So, the total is out of pocket should be about $39,363.

Yes, do not tell me ...
I need to charge a LOT of Apteras to pay for it.
However, I will be generating more than I use, and I like that.

One defect, this is just a Grid-Tie system (the SunnyBoy inverter) and
if the Grid goes down, this system turns off. There is the Sunny Island
"inverter" that will power the house even when the grid is off, but is a bit
more expensive. Here, the grid only rarely goes down.

[JimmyDreams]

Congrats, Gary!!

We're still in the planning stage for my PV system. Waiting on SDG&E to do their survey and let us know what panel upgrades etc. are necessary. My house is 50 years old and only has 100amp service....so an upgrade is necessary.

I'm doing the PBI rebate, and that comes out to be $.32/kHw for whatevr my system produces. (I'm at work right now, so I forget the actual 'rated' numbers the installer provided me.

Take lots of pics of the install and post them....I'd like to see the progress!!

JimmyD

[DonC]

I'm doing the PBI rebate, and that comes out to be $.32/kHw for whatevr my system produces. (I'm at work right now, so I forget the actual 'rated' numbers the installer provided me.
Jimmy, if you're near the coast you should look at the Akeena Andalay (sp?) system. It's a snap together system so all the wiring is internal. If you live on the coast the wiring will definitely be a problem area if it's external. Just too much salt in the air.

[G-Jet]

Gary,

Congratulations on your system. I am in the pre-planning stages and this info is very valuable. Not cheap, but very clean.

G

[garygid]

If you are able to do the install, these guys seem to have all the parts.
http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/systems/grid-tie/discount-gridtie.html

In any case, calibrate your installed-system costs against their prices.

----------
I am having my system done by Solar Summit in San Diego.
Ask for Dave Eveland ... http://www.solarsummit.com/

So far, they passed my first test, and refused to cheat on the
amount of shading (I did not ask them to cheat).

Second, they showed up on time for the site survey, even though
I am about 70 miles north - I am in Laguna Hills.

Third, they appear knowledgeable about all the options.

----------
Upgrading service panel.
My panel is rated 125 amps, and has a 125 amp main breaker.
I need to add a 40 amp (2 pole) for the 240v 35 (or so) amps
to be produced by the SunnyBoy inverter.

The panel is allowed to "accept" up to 120% of rated current.
Thus, 150 amps of "input" is allowed, in my case.
However, the 125 amp grid feed "plus" the 40 amp Solar feed
is 165 amps, or over that allowed by code.

There are several choices, but the main ones are
1. replacing the panel with a higher rated panel,
2. putting in a new Main Service panel with higher rating,
3. reduce the 125 amp breaker in my panel to 110 amps.

I am doing #3, primarily to save costs.
And then, 110 + 40 = 150 amps, which is OK.

Doing either #1 or #2, SDG&E requires upgrading your service.
That requires trenching (26" deep) to the SDG&E distribution box,
laying in 2" conduit, and then SDG&E pulling in new service wires.
And, there is the cost and labor for the new service panel, etc.
I decided the extra $3000 or so was not worth it at this time.
Maybe I will need it later.

--------------
Adding charging Sockets.
I plan to add a 240 volt 40 amp breaker for a new "electric range"
socket if the Aptera can accept such "juice". In any case, I plan
to add two 120 volt 20 amp circuits, for charging my 2 Apteras.
I will put one socket just inside the front garage door, and then
probably put the second one just outside the door for others to use.

I hope this helps, Gary

[vancky]

Garygid,

Bill here, When I did my taxes using TurboTax for 2007, the program asked me if I had invested in solar power. The program took it from there. I got the full tax credit and the $2k on my tax rebate.

Bill (Vancky)

[DonC]

Well, my Solar System is on its way. Sharp ND-224U2 panels (33) and
a SunnyBoy SMA SB7000U grid-feed inverter will be used. This should
produce about a 6.5 kW (PTC) AC system.
That seems like an enormous system. I've got one half the size and it produces about 6000 kWh a year, which is more or less what you're using. The problem of course is that you don't get anything for selling any excess back to the utility. At this point solar doesn't really pencil out as an investment (despite all the sales literature) so it's more an exercise in social responsibility. But I have my limits. :)

Maybe you should start an Aptera charging station. Karen can stop in on her around the country trip!

[vancky]

That seems like an enormous system. I've got one half the size and it produces about 6000 kWh a year, which is more or less what you're using. The problem of course is that you don't get anything for selling any excess back to the utility. At this point solar doesn't really pencil out as an investment (despite all the sales literature) so it's more an exercise in social responsibility. But I have my limits.

Maybe you should start an Aptera charging station. Karen can stop in on her around the country trip!

I have had my solar power system for 6 or 7 months. I have a system rated at 5Kw. It has 27 panels rated at 210 watts each. I take readings on the system each day at sunset. I have been producing over a megawatt of power each month for the past 3 months. The billing I am receiving from SDG&E shows I owe them $118.00 but I have a credit of $198.00. I can't wait until they have to start paying me for the power I am supplying to my neighbors. I was averaging $175.00 per month for electricity before I got my system. It is not a cheep route to go solar but I figured it was no more that the cost of a luxury car. My system cost $58K including upgrading from 100 amp service to 200 amp. and trenching to drag in larger wires (80 feet). I used Clean Power Systems and am very happy with their performance. It is really a MIL Spec install.

I would be happy to show my system to anyone interested. I live in Tierrasanta north of Qualcom Stadium.

Bill mmiller3@san.rr.com

[Aptera3390]

I installed a 2.89Kw system about 2 years ago now. I did the entire installation myself, and it took me a little over a week. This is 17 x 170W panels by Mitsubishi, with a Xantrex 3000W inverter. The hardest part was mounting on a concrete tile roof, with 24 pylons. I am not an electrician, but am an engineer with electronics knowledge. I studied the electrical code and was able to meet the code. It's probably not mil-spec, but I did pass the city inspector and SDGE inspections.

I figured I saved about $5000 in installation costs. At the time, the rebate was $2.80/W, and there was an additional California rebate for the sales tax, but no $2000 fed rebate, but I estimate it cost me total between $10 and $11K. The panels have a 25 year warranty and the inverter has a 5 year.

So far, I have about 1000Kwh surplus each year, so with an electric car, I should be able to soak up that surplus pretty fast.

I also installed a solar water heater last year, at a cost of aprox $2000 after rebates. Anyone in San Diego should look into this because they have a pilot program in San Diego now for rebates, plus the federal 30% rebate. The city permit was expensive for me because I got in at the beginning, but I'm told they have made it easier and hopefully cheaper for people getting it now. The solar water should pay for itself quicker than solar electric, especially if natural gas prices keep increasing. If you are all electric, it pays back even quicker. In my case, at current gas rates, it will probably take 15 years to pay back, but if the permit was more reasonable it would have been closer to 10 years.

In regards to payback, if the rates continue to climb, and I expect that they will, these systems will payback sooner. Of course regardless of the payback time, you can't beat the feeling of being energy independent. :) Now if I can just get the water bill reduced. That is my highest bill now. :(

[speculawyer]

I've done an installation on a previous house and I'm going to do another one on the current house. The project is kind of on hold due to other fiscal matter though. However, I'm going to try to get it all started and lined up so I can reserve a rebate payment.

I'm now at a stage where I have drawn up a set of plans that I am going to submit to the county building department to get a permit. (They are not approved yet but probably won't require much in terms of changes.) If anyone wants them, I'll email them to you. They are in Microsoft Visio and I can also do PDF . . . perhaps there are other formats Visio can export to. They are designed for my house, but if you want to do your own system, it will give a good head start on the process. The system is a SunnyBoy 5000US, 20 Sharp ND-224U2 panels, and Pro-Solar racks.

[speculawyer]

That seems like an enormous system.
That is what I keep telling him. :) But he does plan on having 2 Apteras and he does live in an area where AC is needed. It is definitely a large system though. The SunnyBoy 7000US is the biggest SunnyBoy they make. I'm jealous. :)

[speculawyer]

I'm now at a stage where I have drawn up a set of plans that I am going to submit to the county building department to get a permit. (They are not approved yet but probably won't require much in terms of changes.) If anyone wants them, I'll email them to you. They are in Microsoft Visio and I can also do PDF . . . perhaps there are other formats Visio can export to. They are designed for my house, but if you want to do your own system, it will give a good head start on the process. The system is a SunnyBoy 5000US, 20 Sharp ND-224U2 panels, and Pro-Solar racks.

On Friday I showed up to the daycare center to drop off my daughter . . . after several attempts at the code to get in, someone came out to tell me they were closed on friday for staff development. Great .. . no daycare.

So I used the day to turn my plans into the county. Planning approved (all they were concerned about was if I exceeded height restrictions . . . not an issue for my single story house.) and I guess I have to wait for the building folks. I wanna get my rebate reservation in.


OH . . . I investigated my power usage and put in some power strips to turn off when I leave for work and go to sleep. BAM! My power usage was practicly cut in half! Damn 'energy vampires' really suck a lot of power. That sucks.

Some power strips payed for themselves within a couple weeks!

[JimmyDreams]

OH . . . I investigated my power usage and put in some power strips to turn off when I leave for work and go to sleep. BAM! My power usage was practicly cut in half! Damn 'energy vampires' really suck a lot of power. That sucks.

Some power strips payed for themselves within a couple weeks!

What are some of your energy vampires? I'm sure I have a ton of them around here, but I do not yet have a KillAWatt, so I don't know what's harmless and what sucks (the electricity!)

My PV system is scheduled for install mid October. ;)

JimmyD

[speculawyer]

What are some of your energy vampires? I'm sure I have a ton of them around here, but I do not yet have a KillAWatt, so I don't know what's harmless and what sucks (the electricity!)

My PV system is scheduled for install mid October. ;)

I'm a videogame fan, so I have a home theater stack with a big LCD HDTV, an A/V receiver, a Wii, a PS3, some USB harddrives, HD-DVD addon, etc.

And then there are the PCs, routers, cable modem, laser printer, wireless access point, etc.

I had to shuffle things around a bit on different power strips. So there is a power strip for the A/V center, a power strip for some PCs, and a power strip for internet/wireless. Thus, I can turn off the all the home theater A/V stuff if I'm just browsing the web on a notebook. Or I can keep a PC running if it is downloading something.

But seriously . . . if you put a lot of stuff that is related (such as HDTV, videogame consoles, A/V receiver, etc.) on a single power strip, you can turn it off and save a lot of power from various things that suck power when off. (So much stuff runs in a "low-power" mode waiting for IR remote signals but they still consume a fair amount of power in that mode.

I guess I assume that the stuff barely used any power in stand-by mode . . . but they do.

[garygid]

Now I find out!

Apparently CSI can deny you the rebate if the projected annual
generation of your system is more than your last annual usage
(and your system generates more than 5 kW AC output).

Apparently they do not accept somebody who just wants
to do the planet some good by generating more than they use.

My usage was about 7000 kWh for the last year, and the
projected generation is about 10,500 kWh, with a system
"size" of about 6.5 kW AC output.

So, I have to file additional paperwork showing the additional
load that will increase the usage to over 10,500 kWh.

Hopefully they will accept my increased use of air conditioning,
computers, TV, etc, and a future load of EV charging.

[DonC]

Apparently they do not accept somebody who just wants
to do the planet some good by generating more than they use.
Your system did seem oversized and I wondered if it would be kicked back. I'm surprised your solar guys didn't mention this. Note that CSI will accept the fact that you want to do the planet some good, they just don't want to pay for it. If you want to pay for the system yourself that's OK with them. In processing the rebates I'd think in addition to historical usage it has some guidelines for what is deemed reasonable based on area and square footage.

I think the other issue is that there is a limited pot of money for everyone who wants to add a solar system. Your taking more just leaves less for next homeowner, so an oversized system could be looked at as being greedy. The CSI is supposed to stop this.

To justify the size of the system you might mention the Aptera. You have put money down. (I think I've heard that a plug in EV can count. I'll see if I can confirm it).

[Reellucky]

DonC,

Please let us know if you are able to confirm it. I was going to put in a solar electric system that is 120% of my last years electric usage because I am in the process of tearing my house down to the frame and installing new energy usage items like central air (the house didnt have any before), a big jacuzzi tub, and of course, my plug in hybrid Aptera.

Garygid, sorry to hear about your speed bump in the road of solar. Thanks for sharing it. Thanks to you, I know to try and look for a detour :).

Charlie

[garygid]

I gave the following "justifications" to CSI, along with a load-usage spreadsheet. We will see what happens.

-------------------------------------
I have sized the system larger than the historical usage for a number of reasons:

1. Now, and in the future, I will be at home during the day much more often, since I am not working very much anymore. My heat tolerance (now 66 years old, and continuing to get older) is not what it used to be, so I need additional Air Conditioning. Thus, I anticipate a substantial increase in electrical usage (perhaps 30 percent) due to the Air Conditioning and Heating, lights, computers, printers, TVs, etc. Just one computer can be 300 watts x 15 hours or 4.5 kWh per day. Over perhaps 200 days, that one device alone can be an additional 900 kWh per year. I anticipate the usage of these items to increase.

2. The climate seems to be getting warmer, and I anticipate a noticeable increase in electrical usage (perhaps 5 percent) due to the increased use of the central Air Conditioning system.

3. Additional loads are expected. I have two Electric Vehicles on order, with the first estimated to be delivered in mid 2009. The additional load from charging these vehicles (mostly at night) could easily be 15 kWh per day x 200 days a year, resulting in an additional 3000 kWh of usage during a year. I wanted to be ready for this increased usage. I do not anticipate having a chance to put in another Solar Power system.

4. I wanted to do my part in occasionally helping to supply just a little extra perfectly clean energy for our planet, when it is needed the most – during the daytime.
-------------------------------------

[DonC]

Here's the former lawyer in me:

1. They can of course look at your bill for this August and compare it to last August. You're claiming that your use has gone up. If it hasn't then this justification doesn't look compelling. If you use has gone up, why not mention that?

2. This will be dismissed out of hand. It's way to ephemeral.

3. This is better. The numbers seem to work.

4. This isn't a justification. It's a reason.

If you can, I'd just lose justifications two and four. I'd rewrite number one something like this:

My recent retirement and move to a consulting role necessitates working from home rather than from an employer's office. I estimate being home during the day and working from home will substantially increase my home electrical usage. This will be due to additional Air Conditioning and Heating, lights, computers, and printers. The impacts will be substantial. For example, just using one computer during the workday would use 300 watts x 8 hours or 2.4 kWh per day. [NOTE to Gary -- you say this is a business use so time it like one]. Over 250 work days, that one device alone can be an additional 600 kWh, and there will be multiple electronic devices like this one.

[DonC]

Here are the specifics from the regulations. I'm not sure a hand waving argument will work. It seems to require a more formal study:

2.2.7.1 System Sizing Based on Future Load Growth

In the case of Applicants with new or expanded sites with no electric bill history or where the existing electric bill does not reflect the Applicant’s expected expanded consumption, the Applicant must include an estimate of the expected expanded consumption. An engineering estimate is preferred. The engineering estimate must include the appropriate substantiation of the forecast of the Host Customer Site’s annual energy use (in kWh) if the generating system size is based on future load growth, including new construction, load growth due to site expansion or other load growth circumstances. Suggested methods of demonstrating load growth include Application for Service with corresponding equipment schedules and single line diagram; building simulation program reports such as eQUEST, EnergyPro, DOE-2, and VisualDOE; or detailed engineering calculations or lists of equipment with corresponding equipment schedules. The Program Administrator will verify the load growth predicted before moving forward with the Confirmed Reservation Notice. Systems that are 5 kW or less, are assumed to be in compliance with being sized to serve on-site electric load and do not require substantiation.

For small residential, installing systems of less than or equal to 10kW, a calculation of 2 watts per square foot can be used instead of an engineering estimate. Systems over 10 kW would require an engineering estimate.

[garygid]

Don,
Thanks, but the first round of paperwork has been mailed.
So, we will see what the CSI response is.
Perhaps I will have to submit more of an Engineering Analysis,
but a small spreadsheet "analysis" was also included.

And, in spite of your avatar (I think you can do better than
a peeing boy), Thanks again for the help. :happy0025:

[JimmyDreams]

Gary...

I AM surprised that your installers didn't see this coming. While your salesman was probably salivating over the size of your system (and his commission check), he should have said something.

That being said....have you checked any references for the company you bought your system from? I'd be wondering if there aren't any more surprises in store for you (city/county permit problems, actual system commissioning problems with the electric company, etc.)

The CSI rebate program is fairly straightforward. To let you walk into a situation like that would make me stop and think.

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jimmy,
I wonder also, but I am stuck with them now.
However, I have asked to see copies of all of the paperwork,
applications, permits, plans, etc.

As this progresses, I might learn a lot more.
I will report anything useful.

As with the Aptera, we shall see what happens.
And, I do appreciate the concern, your help, and any suggestions.

Sincerely, Gary

[danieloneil01]

Gary, sorry if you covered this but when you said 7000kWh last year. Do you mean you only used that amount total for your house?

[garygid]

Daniel,
Yes, used 350 in min. month, 1500 in max. month, for about
570 kWh average per month (about 7000 kWh for the whole year).

Currently, I try to conserve, but I did not know that would "backfire" on me.

No pool, use gas heat and water, and not much cooking.
No outside lighting at night, and we turn off inside lights when
we are not actively using them. Only one refrigerator, but a fair
number of "wall warts". The big TV and computer are "big" loads.

Many homes would use a lot more.
What is normal for you?

[danieloneil01]

Man you're lucky but your climate is probably a bit better than mine.

During the summer I use around 2100 and during the somewhat cooler months around 1200-1500. I live in a 2yr old home so it's got all the energy stuff plus double pain (sp?) windows. I keep my thermo at 76. But I do have tons and tons of electronics. My last bill really kills me, $360 for 2100kWh. I probably use 7k just in the summer months, June-September


I find it funny though. They offer Wind Power yet it is the same price as the Coal and Gas. I know the turbines aren't cheap but shouldn't it cost lower since the power is wind and not coal or gas? Right now it's costing me .16per kWh and going up every month. It started at .09; 6 months ago. Good thing it's unlike my old power company (TXU) because there's no penalty for going over 1500kWh thank god. Fuel surcharge with them almost would double the bill.


It's so hot and humid down here the a/c even though new is on alot even at a high 76.


But you Cali people got screwed years ago by my peeps at Enron :fighting0003:

PS, I live between Galveston and Houston.

[KarenRei]

They offer Wind Power yet it is the same price as the Coal and Gas. I know the turbines aren't cheap but shouldn't it cost lower since the power is wind and not coal or gas?

Capital costs are higher, and they have to be amortized. Also, you need more peaking generation capacity.

Getting ready to flee Ike? You better be ;)

[DonC]

PS, I live between Galveston and Houston.
Before we get to anything else: Here in CA we're rooting for you guys to survive Ike with minimal problems. Hopefully it will get broken up and won't reform that well. Keep safe.

On the price per kWh, TX is going through with deregulation. It didn't work that well in CA for a variety of reasons. This was really the larger problem than Enron. Hopefully you folks will fare better than we did but I have doubts. And you guys definitely need air conditioning. I lived on a golf course in the Woodlands, which is north of Houston, and in the sprint\summer I had to squeegee the windows on the inside every morning. The humidity was really something.

[danieloneil01]

I know where The Woodlands is at. Nice area and the hurricane doesn't look like it's going to hit here. I worry more about the thousands of oil rigs out there. The powers that be are saying theres to much oil on the market.

[KarenRei]

You're in the cone; don't act like that. 1/3 of storms hit *outside* the cone. The cone for Rita, at three days, was aiming at Corpus Christi. Rita hit Louisiana. You're four days out. Please take these things seriously. I've noticed a serious problem with the Houston area having "Rita Fatigue" (such as almost all the rooms in Galveston being booked for Labor Day with Gustav churning out in the gulf), and one of these days, it's going to badly bite you all.

How long have you lived in the area, by the way? Long enough to remember Alicia or not? I moved to the northeast side of Houston (Alicia hit to the southwest as a minimal Cat 3) when I was a child, just after the storm hit. I'll never forget all the damage I saw while we were looking at houses. And this was way inland, on the other side of the city.

DonC: Bet you're thankful you live in California, eh? Nothing like Houston to give you a nice appreciation for California weather ;)

[gg222]

DonC: Bet you're thankful you live in California, eh? Nothing like Houston to give you a nice appreciation for California weather ;)
We had a 4.0 earthquake here the other day. Felt it, but it wasn't very big. On the good side, it was a sunny day. :)

[danieloneil01]

You're in the cone; don't act like that. 1/3 of storms hit *outside* the cone. The cone for Rita, at three days, was aiming at Corpus Christi. Rita hit Louisiana. You're four days out. Please take these things seriously. I've noticed a serious problem with the Houston area having "Rita Fatigue" (such as almost all the rooms in Galveston being booked for Labor Day with Gustav churning out in the gulf), and one of these days, it's going to badly bite you all.

How long have you lived in the area, by the way? Long enough to remember Alicia or not? I moved to the northeast side of Houston (Alicia hit to the southwest as a minimal Cat 3) when I was a child, just after the storm hit. I'll never forget all the damage I saw while we were looking at houses. And this was way inland, on the other side of the city.

DonC: Bet you're thankful you live in California, eh? Nothing like Houston to give you a nice appreciation for California weather ;)



I was born in 1979 :) , very little memory. I do remember a tree on my parents car but that's it. But Allison was a TS and it caused more devistation than any hurricane I can remember. I-10 was a lake and almost every house in my parents neighborhood was flooded.

Lived around the Houston area my whole life.

[DonC]

DonC: Bet you're thankful you live in California, eh? Nothing like Houston to give you a nice appreciation for California weather ;)
Oh yes. Oh yes. Maybe when you come out for your car you'll decide to just stay! Iowa in winter can't be too much fun.

[Pedrohats]

Gary,

Why don't you first install a smaller system, get the rebate then add
more panels to the system later. Perhaps you would get a 2nd rebate
on the additional panels when installed at a later date.

[garygid]

Ped...,
Papers already filed with CSI, so I will wait to see what they say.

[KarenRei]

I was born in 1979 :) , very little memory. I do remember a tree on my parents car but that's it. But Allison was a TS and it caused more devistation than any hurricane I can remember. I-10 was a lake and almost every house in my parents neighborhood was flooded.

Lived around the Houston area my whole life.

Speaking of Alicia and preparedness... have you looked at the NHC forecast lately? The center of the cone is showing almost the same landfall point as Alicia. Except this is going to be a much larger, and likely stronger storm than Alicia.

Seriously... depending on the strength at impact and tides, this storm could have as much as a 20-25 foot surge, and even more in isolated areas where the water gets funnelled. Half the land between Galveston to Houston is that altitude or less. Please take this very seriously. And even if the track shifts, continue to take it very seriously until you're out of the cone.

[danieloneil01]

Yeah I spoke alittle to soon :) I live in the 77539 and I got insurance. Trying to find a generator just incase :)

[KarenRei]

Ike now has the largest IKE score (funny, I know -- Integrated Kinetic Energy) of any Atlantic storm in the past 40 years. Its windfield is massive. This won't be pleasant.

Wait, 77539? As in Dickinson, TX? Get the heck out of there! The center of the city is only ~15 feet above sea level; according to NOAA's experimental storm surge forecast, there's a 10% chance that the surge will reach *24-27 feet or higher* on the south and east sides of Houston. The *expected* surge is 10-15 feet across 180 miles of coastline.

http://icons-pe.wunderground.com/data/images/at200809_surge.gif

Check out this link for other simulations:
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/texsurge.asp?MR=1

Please, get out of there! You don't have to go far. Even Friendswood would be a huge improvement. Get some altitude; Alvin, Manvel, Pearland, Missouri City, Sugar Land, Stafford, Houston proper -- any of those areas would be fine. You don't have to run from the wind, but you have to run from the water :P Personally, I'd run from the wind, too, unless I could find a very solid structure with no trees around it that's at least 30 feet (preferably 40+) above sea level. And even then, who wants to be in the Houston area with no power for days or weeks, with all the roads blocked?

[danieloneil01]

Eh, I'm not leaving this time. Friendswood (co-worker lives there) has a mandatory evacuation because it's even lower.

I've got a portable a/c and I'm on a list for a generator so as long as I can get there and back I should be good.

The last time we evacuated it took 12 hours to get to Conroe (usually an hr drive). I couldn't leave early do to work and my wife is even at work right now.

[DonC]

Reellucky - I did check and what I was told is your situation should not be a big deal. I checked with the project manager at Akeena who handled my install and he said they did something like this for some folks on Coronado who were putting in AC and two chargers for electric cars (golf cart types). He said detailed analysis was not required. You should not have any problem.

Pedrohats - The inverters are sized for the system so to add panels you'd have to add an inverter as well. I think the rebate program requires this.

Gary - Hopefully this bodes well for you. I didn't ask him about installing a 10W system when the historical load supported something along the lines of a 3.5W one, but he generally downplayed the difficulty of justifying a larger system. I am, however, wondering how your solar company missed this. It's pretty basic.

[KarenRei]

Eh, I'm not leaving this time. Friendswood (co-worker lives there) has a mandatory evacuation because it's even lower.

I've got a portable a/c and I'm on a list for a generator so as long as I can get there and back I should be good.

The last time we evacuated it took 12 hours to get to Conroe (usually an hr drive). I couldn't leave early do to work and my wife is even at work right now.

No, you're not good. You're in the flood zone. You're in Evacuation Zone A. You're already under a voluntary evacuation. Expect it to turn mandatory. They're evacuating the Carol Young Unit (prison) in Dickinson already.

A generator won't stop a storm surge from killing you. The center of Friendswood is at 28 feet elevation. The center of Dickinson is at 15 feet elevation, and is closer to the shore. Dickinson is less than six flat miles to Galveston Bay, and water piles up in bays. You are explicitly disbeliefing official NHC surge prediction graphs. You're comparing 12 hours in the car to putting yourself at significant risk of *dying*. The primary reason modern hurricanes don't generally kill thousands like they used to is because people in at-risk areas know about them in advance and leave. This is a storm with a higher integrated kinetic energy (which primarily determines surge) than Katrina. Please, don't stay in a flood zone! Get out! You don't have to drive 12 hours -- you just need to go five miles inland and you'll be safe from the surge. Heck, even just driving a couple miles up Galveston Road to League City would give you seven more feet of altitude. *NEVER* stay in an area at risk of storm surge.

http://graymonk.mu.nu/photographs/power/Katrina%20Storm%20Surge.jpg

Let me reiterate: 180 *MILES* of coastline are expected to have 10-15 feet of water, and you're at 15 feet of altitude. Areas near the center, which according to the NHC track, *you are*, are expected to have *notably higher* water. I apologize for getting agitated about this, but it's like watching a person sitting in a burning living room saying, "Meh, I think the fire will burn itself out."

[iwannaptera]

Let me reiterate: 180 *MILES* of coastline are expected to have 10-15 feet of water, and you're at 15 feet of altitude. Areas near the center, which according to the NHC track, *you are*, are expected to have *notably higher* water. I apologize for getting agitated about this, but it's like watching a person sitting in a burning living room saying, "Meh, I think the fire will burn itself out."

Listen to KarenRei danieloneil01. Find higher groud with good wind resistance. You can't swim in a storm surge, all the crap swirling around (like trees and cars) will hit you and kill you. You can't just sit on the top of your house, you will get blown off/ hit with debris. You need a solid, preferably concrete, structure at least 25 feet above sea level. If you are lucky and you happen to live on some sort of hill, hey good for you. If not, get the heck out of there. You are about to witness a greater amount of flooding in your area than has ever occured in your entire lifetime. Nothing you have ever seen will compare. (unless the storm turns of course). KarenRei is right. The darn thing is coming right at you! Don't be a Darwin award winner. 12 hours in a car with your wife safe and sound is WAY better than the death of you and your wife. Gas up and go!

[danieloneil01]

I live more than 5 miles inland. I live on the west side of 45. And League City would not be better. It's closer to the water than where I'm at now.

http://www.uploadthepic.com/reg/image.php?id=8318untitled.JPG

Iwannaperta, I never said anything about sitting on my roof or swimming in it. I've been watching the news and they have high tech equipment and the storm surge based on a 19ft surge would not affect me.


PS, sorry for hijacking the thread.

[KarenRei]

According to Google Earth, the area you circled is 12-16 feet in altitude. According to the NHC SLOSH maps, that area has a good chance of being underwater. It's not how close you are to the water; it's how high up you are and how geography affects the flow.

Do you realize that your mayor (Julie Masters) just called for an *mandatory* evacuation of the area around Dickinson Bayou? You know, that marshy creek just a couple hundred feet from your house? Look, odds are way too high that you're going to be *underwater*:

http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/surge/galveston_mom3_hi.png

You know where Dickinson is on this map, right? This is the SLOSH simulation for a normal category three hitting at high tide. Ike is expected to hit as a Cat 3, but not a normal Cat 3 -- as the largest Atlantic storm in at least the past 40 years (larger than even Katrina). This means exceptionally high surges. Something more like the below map is a very possible scenario:

http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/surge/galveston_mom4_hi.png

And then, on top of that surge, there's big waves. Please, get out of there! Why on Earth would you risk your life this way? So you don't have to drive 5-10 miles?

(for those who don't know where Dickinson is, here's a map)
http://www.clearlakeshores-realestate.com/map.gif

[DonC]

PS, sorry for hijacking the thread.
No aplogies necessary.

I know we may seem like old nags but Karen is right. You're better leaving than being trapped. Houston has not taken a direct hit from a hurricane like this in a long time, and a lot of the area is now much lower than it has been historically because all the ground water has been pumped out.

I will say this. When they developed the Woodlands they channeled all the water into Spring. Spring gets inundated and the Woodlands is fine. So if you end up towards Conroe keep that in mind.

Stay safe.

[JimmyDreams]

No to drag the thread back on topic, but....

I'm making a small web page to chronicle the installation of my new solar system. I've never done a page before, so it's VERY basic, but if you want to check it out, feel free. The site is at:

http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar.html

Let me know if there are broken links/display problems or any other comments you may have.

:)

JimmyD

[DonC]

Let me know if there are broken links/display problems or any other comments you may have.
Looks good to me. How much is the panel upgrade going to cost. That can get expensive depending on the wires they need to lay.

Page looks great.

[JimmyDreams]

Looks good to me. How much is the panel upgrade going to cost. That can get expensive depending on the wires they need to lay.

Page looks great.

They charge $1995 for a service panel upgrade to 200 amp service. That's about the going rate from what I've found. The trenching will only be about 35-40 feet since my electric panel is as close to the main line service as you can get. They charge $10-20/ft for the trenching, but that includes the conduit to run the wires. As it was explained to me, SDG&E will run the wires at no cost. So I'm figuring $800 on the high end for the trenching plus the $1995. $2800 for all the work isn't outrageous....so long as it all works when they're done!!

;)

JimmyD

[garygid]

"They" charge ... $1995 ... panel upgrade.
Who is "they", your contractor?

[Apt3448]

Thanks Jimmy, I'm in the market for a system in the next two years or so, and I really appreciate the info. curious to see it 'up close'. Good luck!

[JimmyDreams]

"They" charge ... $1995 ... panel upgrade.
Who is "they", your contractor?

Gary...

My installer, Clean Power Systems, charges the $1995 for the service upgrade. Each 'branch' of the company specializes in whatever they do so that there's no subcontracting. The guys who install the panels up on the roof are roofers, not electricians. That way, they can guarantee no leaks. The guys who do the wiring are certified electricians and that's ALL they do. Etc., etc.

Clean Power isn't the cheapest around, but I'm happy with the way they're doing business so far.

:)

JimmyD

[JimmyDreams]

Thanks Jimmy, I'm in the market for a system in the next two years or so, and I really appreciate the info. curious to see it 'up close'. Good luck!

You're welcome! Check the site often over the next few weeks through the end of October. I'm usually a very talkative guy and that will come out on the web page as I learn to use the software that makes it....lots of pics and info will find its way there, I can assure you.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask!

JimmyD

[garygid]

Good news,
I just got word from my contractor that the California Solar Initiative
(CSI) rebate for my slightly-oversized system has been "Reserved".

Thank goodness that I was not penalized for being conservative
in my electricity use these past years.

The panels have already been ordered, and a "bunch" have apparently
arrived at the distributor. To grab them while they are available, the
contractor will arrange to ship the 33 Sharp panels to my home.

In the mean time, they will work on getting the permits required.
I have asked to review the layout on the roof, the electrical plans,
and any other paperwork.

More later, Gary

[JimmyDreams]

Thats good to hear, Gary.

I assume my reservation is already in. The engineer from my installer came out a few weeks ago and we were up on the roof deciding on panel placement etc. I had to initial off on the plan. Permits are in work, and SDG&E has already been out once to check existing service.

My guess is that after weeks of not hearing much, the whole thing will fall together fairly quickly. The hardest part will be waiting for SDG&E to come out and authorize commissioning the system. I hope it's not done but that we wait 2 weeks for SDG&E!! :(

JimmyD

[Cap'n Ron]

I'm making a small web page to chronicle the installation of my new solar system. I've never done a page before, so it's VERY basic, but if you want to check it out, feel free. The site is at:
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar.html
Let me know if there are broken links/display problems or any other comments you may have.


Jimmy,

Excellent! ...and simple is not a bad thing. I bookmarked your web page and will be watching for updates! Thanks for putting that up...it'll be helpful to all of us who will eventually go down this path.

Cap'n. . .

[DonC]

They charge $1995 for a service panel upgrade to 200 amp service. That's about the going rate from what I've found. The trenching will only be about 35-40 feet since my electric panel is as close to the main line service as you can get. They charge $10-20/ft for the trenching, but that includes the conduit to run the wires. As it was explained to me, SDG&E will run the wires at no cost. So I'm figuring $800 on the high end for the trenching plus the $1995. $2800 for all the work isn't outrageous....so long as it all works when they're done!!
If I remember correctly there are two types of wires to the home. One is just a wire with a protection wrapper. The other is in a conduit. The former is considerably more expensive to replace. You house looks like it was built in the 70s? If that's the case then it probably uses the non-conduit version (SEDA?), which is consistent with the notion that your provider is going to lay conduit. In any event your estimate may cover whatever you have so this is just a FYI thing.

I believe however that SDG&E does charge to pull the wire. You might want to check on that.

[JimmyDreams]

If I remember correctly there are two types of wires to the home. One is just a wire with a protection wrapper. The other is in a conduit. The former is considerably more expensive to replace. You house looks like it was built in the 70s? If that's the case then it probably uses the non-conduit version (SEDA?), which is consistent with the notion that your provider is going to lay conduit. In any event your estimate may cover whatever you have so this is just a FYI thing.

I believe however that SDG&E does charge to pull the wire. You might want to check on that.

You are correct about the types of wire. My house was built (I think) in the mid 60's. The wire from the street to the house is just dropped in the dirt, so there's really no way to run new wire without digging. Current electrical codes apparently don't allow dropped wires, but require the conduit. Either way, we'll be making a mess in the yard. ;)

I just checked with my installers and they said indeed, SDG&E will pull the wires for free, once we (the installer and I) have the 2 inch conduit buried. He said that's about the ONLY freebie that SDG&E gives out, and that's only because usually it means you'll be using more power and they get to charge you more!! :scared0013:

We're approaching the fast track for this. Next week we should be able to pin down a date for installation. Yipee.

JimmyD

[DonC]

I just checked with my installers and they said indeed, SDG&E will pull the wires for free, once we (the installer and I) have the 2 inch conduit buried. He said that's about the ONLY freebie that SDG&E gives out, and that's only because usually it means you'll be using more power and they get to charge you more!! :scared0013:

We're approaching the fast track for this. Next week we should be able to pin down a date for installation. Yipee.
I'm very surprised SDG&E gives any freebies. Very unlike them. And actually they're going to be charging you less! Or at least you'll be using less of what they're selling. :)

I'm sure you're excited about the install. Keep us posted.

[xpguy]

We got our permits today and installation starts Monday. We went with Akeena and will have the Andalay panels put in. Our house is almost 4,000 sf with two 5 ton AC units, a large pool, and a separate barn. We use about 1,600kWh per month of SDG&E juice. We have good orientation here in Poway and no palms in the way. As luck would have it, we have only one vent on the roof where the panels are to be installed.

We chose the Andalay system mainly due to aestethics. There are no gaps and no exposed wiring. Everything is completely enclosed. Our main concern with Akeena is they want full payment (over $50K) up front on Monday before any work starts. We rationalized this by saying just how could they take our money and run, right?

I am not very web savvy, but I did build a site a few years ago when we went to Thailand. I can brush up those skills if anyone wants to track the progress on our house?

[DonC]

We chose the Andalay system mainly due to aestethics. There are no gaps and no exposed wiring. Everything is completely enclosed.
That was one heck of a good idea. The Andalay system is so vastly superior to anything else out there at the moment it's not even funny. Since you live in "Arizona" (anything East of El Camino Real, only kidding) the appeal may lie in the aesthetic, but if you live near the coast it's necessary. Anyone living near the ocean who thinks their wiring is not going to corrode is delusional, and the only practical method of preventing this is the Andalay system where all the wiring is internal. I've been very surprised at how few people understand this.

[garygid]

xpguy,
My guy waits for the last 35 to 40% until the system works.
I would NOT pay a contractor everything before then.

[JimmyDreams]

xpguy,
My guy waits for the last 35 to 40% until the system works.
I would NOT pay a contractor everything before then.


Me neither. Pay them for the ordered equipment all up front, but that's about it.

JimmyD

[DonC]

I would NOT pay a contractor everything before then.
Once you understand the details this is actually more or less what he is doing. Akeena carries the rebate so you never pay the entire cost of the system. When he says he needs to pay in full he doesn't really mean full, he means the full price of the system minus the rebate. That should work out to about 70% of the cost of the system.

Plus a final payment is held back until the work is inspected and approved. That's maybe another 10%. So the total he's paying on delivery of the equipment would be about 60% of the total cost, which is what you're suggesting is fair.

My guess is that your contractors want to be paid for the entire system and it's your responsibility to get the rebate. Personally I liked the Akeena system because it meant I never had to deal with the CSI nor wait for the money.

[garygid]

My contractor (Solar Summit) is collecting the approximately $12,500
rebate from CSI, and I still hold back a chunk of the remaining $41,500
until completion of installation, and successful operation is achieved.

They hope to do the install the week of 29 Sept, 2008. :happy0025:

[JimmyDreams]

Once you understand the details this is actually more or less what he is doing. Akeena carries the rebate so you never pay the entire cost of the system. When he says he needs to pay in full he doesn't really mean full, he means the full price of the system minus the rebate. That should work out to about 70% of the cost of the system.

Well, he said full payment (over 50K) which to me sounds like the cost of the entire system minus rebate. Regardless of who gets the rebate first, I'd NEVER pay 100% of my out-of-pocket expenses to a contractor up front.


My guess is that your contractors want to be paid for the entire system and it's your responsibility to get the rebate. Personally I liked the Akeena system because it meant I never had to deal with the CSI nor wait for the money.

Neither do I. My installer wanted $1,000 to start the process, then 20% about a month later. 50% due when they order everything (not until all the paperwork is complete), then the remaining 30% at final inspection/commissioning. That's a payment plan I'm comfortable with. PLUS, I don't have to do a THING paperwork wise. I sign what they tell me to and the installer does EVERYTHING concerning permits, CSI, inspections, etc. I went with CSI's metering program which increases my rebate from around $12,500 to over $17,000 over 5 years. I'll cash the monthly checks with a smile!

Personally, I'd be uncomfortable with any installer that wants 100% up front and/or expects me to navigate the CSI/permit/inspection paperwork nightmare myself.

JimmyD

[DonC]

My contractor (Solar Summit) is collecting the approximately $12,500
rebate from CSI, and I still hold back a chunk of the remaining $41,500
until completion of installation, and successful operation is achieved.

They hope to do the install the week of 29 Sept, 2008. :happy0025:
Should be exciting!

I don't think breaking the payment in two is a great advantage. Delivery and install happen more or less simultaneously and a 40% holdback is more than sufficient. Additionally Akeena is a publicly traded company, so it's not as if they're not going to show up on the morning of the third day because they've run off to Cabo San Lucas with their sister-in-law.

I'd be more concerned about what happens five years after delivery of the equipment than five days after. :scared0011:

[DonC]

Neither do I. My installer wanted $1,000 to start the process, then 20% about a month later. 50% due when they order everything (not until all the paperwork is complete), then the remaining 30% at final inspection/commissioning. That's a payment plan I'm comfortable with. PLUS, I don't have to do a THING paperwork wise. I sign what they tell me to and the installer does EVERYTHING concerning permits, CSI, inspections, etc. I went with CSI's metering program which increases my rebate from around $12,500 to over $17,000 over 5 years. I'll cash the monthly checks with a smile!
Ultimately it's what you're comfortable with. I had no issue with a 60% payment and it worked out fine for me. I would have been less happy with payment system based on a 14% payment for paperwork and a 35% payment at the time of ordering. This suggests to me they have a cash flow issue. But really it's whatever floats your boat.

I hadn't heard about the CSI metering program. What's that about? Do you have a cite?

[garygid]

Two different state-sponsored rebates to choose between in California.

1. EPBB - Estimated Performance Based (one-time up front rebate):

Basically, after taking roof facing direction and slope, shading, your location
and its probable sunshine hours, and the average high temperatures into
account to "derate" the original DC production, and then the losses in the
chosen inverter, one gets an expected yearly production. That leads
to a daily AC kW "rating" of less than you would expect ... that they use to
calculate the Rebate. Currently, and maybe for a month or so more, the rebate
is $2.20 per watt, then it will drop to the next lower tier, at $1.90 per watt
of "derated" AC output. So, a 6500 watt AC system might get "derated" to 6000 W
(started as 7.4 kW DC) times $2.20 = $13,200 as the one-time up front rebate.

2. PBI - Performance Based Incentive (paid monthly for 5 years):

This is the "CSI metering" program.
Actual production gets monitored by another meter, and that meter gets
read by the power company, or it reports data through an Internet monitoring
subscription service. You are paid $0.34 per kWh produced, each month for 60
months. There is no up-front Rebate. So, if your system produces
10,500 kWh per year x 0.34 = $3570 per year => $17850 over 5 years.
Also, in some reported cases, the actual production is larger then the
"estimated" production. It appears that the total rebate can be larger than
that with EPBB, but it is strung out over 60 months.

3. The best way to see these things is to experiment
with the official CSI online rebate estimator, at:
http://www.csi-epbb.com/

[DonC]

Two different state-sponsored rebates to choose between in California.

3. The best way to see these things is to experiment
with the official CSI online rebate estimator, at:
http://www.csi-epbb.com/
This is very interesting. It seems like it's always better to use the PBI. At first I assumed it was just the cost of money, and maybe it is, but the discount rate is very high.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, JimmyDreams is not getting a lump sum rebate, so if his system costs $40K, when he pays 50% of the system cost he's paying $20K. His rebate comes later based on production. Am I understanding this right?

[JimmyDreams]

This is very interesting. It seems like it's always better to use the PBI. At first I assumed it was just the cost of money, and maybe it is, but the discount rate is very high.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, JimmyDreams is not getting a lump sum rebate, so if his system costs $40K, when he pays 50% of the system cost he's paying $20K. His rebate comes later based on production. Am I understanding this right?

Pretty much. My TOTAL system runs $56K, which I pay completely. I get $2K back next year from the federal gov't. And over the next five years, I expect to get back between $17,000 and $18,000 in the form of monthly checks because I went with the CBI plan. Assume $17,500 in rebates over 5 years, my out-of-pocket expenses are $36,500.

Now, also keep in mind that (at least as of 2006), in California, the resale value of your home increases $20,000 for every $1,000 in utility bills you eliminate through renewable energy. I'm saving about $2,400/yr in electric bills, which means I can add over $40,000 to the price of my house should I decide to sell. Those numbers are skewed due to the real-estate meltdown, but assume they're still valid to some extent.

So I cough up $56K for the system. After 5 years, my out of pocket expense is $36,500. If I sell my house and add $40,000, I'm up $3,500 plus another $12,000 in electric bills that I SAVED over that time.(that's also NOT counting any increase in electric rates over time).

Is it a 'wise investment'? You decide. I'm not doing this for the return on my investment....I may or may not beat that by just investing the $$ in stocks. But every year that I stay here, I save another $2,400 in electric bills not being paid. Over time, the numbers REALLY skew in my favor.

Plus, I get a Christmas card from Al Gore. :)

JimmyD

[xpguy]

Thanks for the responses. In the end, I guess I am not really paying "up front" since they will be here working when I hand over the check.

[garygid]

xpguy,
See if you can get some before, during, and after pictures, and
possibly some detailed shots of the mounting posts into the roof,
the mounting rails, and the electrical "non-external" connections.
Thanks, Gary

[jstdadd]

Why is all this discussion in the Solar Power Thread?

[garygid]

Installing a Home Solar Power System is how we intend
to "use" Solar Power electricity to charge our Aptera vehicles.

This is not a thread for Solar Powered Cars, or to discuss
the Solar Panels on the top of the Aptera.

[garygid]

The following were submitted to the Building Department,
and a permit was issued (one page unless noted otherwise):

1. One-Line Diagram
2. Three-Line Diagram
3. Plot (property) Plan
4. Roof Layout
5. SunnyBoy Inverter Spec Sheet (2 pages)
6. Sharp Panel Spec Sheet (2 pages)
7. Fast Jack Roof Stanchion spec sheet (2 pages)
8. Roof Trac rail panel mounting spec sheet (2 pages)

Only the first four are specific to my particular system.
The others are available on-line.

Work should start Monday ... :happy0025:

[xpguy]

Gary,

We have our final inspection today. Installation was very smooth and the panels look great. I have nothing but great things to say about Akeena. I have a ton of pictures and will get them up on our MySpace page. I am not sure when our first day online will be, but it should be this week. Not a single cable is visible on the roof.

[daddio]

CONGRATS to the new PV Solar generators!. I have been enjoying my negative bills and return of the green power to the grids for years here in NJ. Don't forget to add this investment/"cost to replace" to your homeowners as you can't get the incentives again if they have to be replaced.

I suppose you are also aware of this issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/technology/24solar.html?_r=1&ei=5070&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1222268676-xFC5AS+1SKjiQCLs61/pxQ

[JimmyDreams]

CONGRATS to the new PV Solar generators!. I have been enjoying my negative bills and return of the green power to the grids for years here in NJ. Don't forget to add this investment/"cost to replace" to your homeowners as you can't get the incentives again if they have to be replaced.

I suppose you are also aware of this issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/technology/24solar.html?_r=1&ei=5070&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1222268676-xFC5AS+1SKjiQCLs61/pxQ

Thanks for the link, Daddio! That's an aspect thast I never would have considered. Luckily, most of my panels will be directly over my master bedroom AND my German Shepherd doesn't seem to miss much when it comes to people outside my house. :jumping0007:

My application for the CSI rebate was approved 2 days ago with no problems. The tree people are coming later today to remove the palms trees that shade portions of my roof (updated pics on my web site will be up probably tomorrow www.jjhamilton.com/solar.html)

Next is trenching the new wires from the street and installation of the roof mounting system...hopefully in the next 2 weeks.

JimmyD

[xpguy]

Daddio,

Thanks for that link. I have heard of massive copper thefts out here, but actually removing panels for resale is quite bold. As with one of the examples in the story, it would take someone with intimate knowledge of the connectivity of this system to remove the panels. There is a web monitoring module available that we did not purchase. I may inquire into whether that module has any anti-theft capabilities included.

The entire process from signing the contract to final inspection for us was 16 days. We make our final payment today and the system will be active this afternoon. I think I will stand in front of the open refrigerator door tonight for awhile deciding what to have for dinner!

[DonC]

The entire process from signing the contract to final inspection for us was 16 days. We make our final payment today and the system will be active this afternoon. I think I will stand in front of the open refrigerator door tonight for awhile deciding what to have for dinner!
A few pics of the install would be nice. Actually the lack of pictures of the wiring .....

Who was your project manager?

[garygid]

The 66 bases, stanchions, and flashings are in place, and the rails mounted.

Note: remember to ask that the flashings be painted to match your
roof, or their "bright" metalwork will stand out like a "sore thumb".

Now, some junction boxes and conduit are being added, but
the rails are still not quite "properly" aligned with each other.
The roof is not perfectly flat.

Later in the day, they should start installing some panels.
Hopefully, they will be done in another day ... or two.

[JimmyDreams]

The 66 bases, stanchions, and flashings are in place, and the rails mounted.

Note: remember to ask that the flashings be painted to match your
roof, or their "bright" metalwork will stand out like a "sore thumb".

Now, some junction boxes and conduit are being added, but
the rails are still not quite "properly" aligned with each other.
The roof is not perfectly flat.

Later in the day, they should start installing some panels.
Hopefully, they will be done in another day ... or two.

Pictures!!

JimmyD

[garygid]

I am taking some pictures.
I will make them available when I get a little time.

They are running a bit behind, because they had hoped
to get all the panels up today. But, they got the left
"half" (16 of 33) mounted, and two junction boxes and
some conduit on the roof.

Tomorrow, two AC wiring guys (off-the-roof guys) will help things along,
mounting and wiring the SunnyBoy, an AC disconnect, and an extra
Solar-Production meter. They will need to rewire the Service panel,
so I will be "off the grid" for a little while.

[garygid]

Wow, due to the new Federal Tax Credit for 2009, I need
to delay getting my system "in service" until 1 Jan 2009.

But, for $12,000 instead of $2000, it is really worth waiting.

[JimmyDreams]

Wow, due to the new Federal Tax Credit for 2009, I need
to delay getting my system "in service" until 1 Jan 2009.

But, for $12,000 instead of $2000, it is really worth waiting.

I will wait and read the whole text of the law concerning this. But if it's right and there IS no limit, up to 30% for a home system, then I'd be looking at $16,875 vs. $2,000. There has to be some kind of cap, though. And also, you won't get your money until you file your 2009 taxes in 2010.

Yeah, I'd wait until January 1st for THAT. But something tells me that there's got to be a more reasonable limit...like $4,000 instead of $2,000.

I'm sure there's more info to come.....

JimmyD

[JimmyDreams]

Well, after searching, here's what I've come up with.


From the IRS web site:

(items in bold were highlighted by me)


Highlights of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 for Individuals


FS-2006-14, Jan. 2006

During 2006, individuals can make energy-conscious purchases that will provide tax benefits when filling out their tax returns next year. The new law provides tax credits for making your principal residence, which must be in the United States, more energy efficient and for buying certain energy efficient items. At the same time the law provides credits for various types of alternative motor vehicles, including hybrids.

Credits for Individuals Who Make Their Homes More Energy Efficient

A recent tax law change provides a tax credit to improve the energy efficiency of existing homes. The law provides a 10 percent credit for buying qualified energy efficiency improvements. To qualify, a component must meet or exceed the criteria established by the 2000 International Energy Conservation Code (including supplements) and must be installed in the taxpayer’s main home in the United States.

The following items are eligible:

Insulation systems that reduce heat loss/gain
Exterior windows (including skylights)
Exterior doors Metal roofs (meeting applicable Energy Star requirements).
In addition, the law provides a credit for costs relating to residential energy property expenses. To qualify as residential energy property, the property must meet certification requirements prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury and must be installed in the taxpayer’s main home in the United States.

The following items are eligible:

$50 for each advanced main air circulating fan
$150 for each qualified natural gas, propane, or oil furnace or hot water boiler
$300 for each item of qualified energy efficient property.
The maximum credit for all taxable years is $500 – no more than $200 of the credit can be attributable to expenses for windows.

Additionally, the new law makes a credit available to those who add qualified solar panels, solar water heating equipment, or a fuel cell power plant to their homes in the United States. In general, a qualified fuel cell power plant converts a fuel into electricity using electrochemical means, has an electricity –only generation efficiency of more than 30 percent and generates at least 0.5 kilowatts of electricity. Taxpayers are allowed one credit equal to 30 percent of the qualified investment in a solar panel up to a maximum credit of $2,000, and another equivalent credit for investing in a solar water heating system. No part of either system can be used to heat a pool or hot tub.

Additionally, taxpayers are also allowed a 30 percent tax credit for the purchase of qualified fuel cell power plants. The credit may not exceed $500 for each .5 kilowatt of capacity.

These items must be placed in service after Dec. 31, 2005 and before Jan. 1, 2008.


So as I read it, up to 30% of the cost of the panels (NOT total system cost (which includes installation, design, etc). Aside from that, commission the system after Dec31st, and I think you're in. It doesn't say anything about when the panels were purchased.

I'm assuming the new bailout law simply changes the expiration dates and removes the $2,000 cap.
:jumping0007:

JimmyD

[garygid]

So far, I find 30% of entire Solar PV system expences,
including design and installation, with no limit.
IF "placed in service" after 2008.

[JimmyDreams]

So far, I find 30% of entire Solar PV system expences,
including design and installation, with no limit.
IF "placed in service" after 2008.

First thing Monday, I'm calling my installer. Since we're still in the 'planning' phase and haven't moved one blade of grass or run one wire...unless they have other information, I will tell them to start dragging their feet for a January 1 or thereafter commissioning date.

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jimmy,
No, No.
Get the design done quickly, and apply to reserve the CA rebate ASAP,
to try and get the tail end of the $2.20 per kW, if it is still available.
Next rebate tier is only $1.90 per kW (all are "derated" AC kW, not DC kW).

Then, you have 12 months to finish and actually file to get the rebate.

[garygid]

So far, I am assuming that the construction, installation, and even
limited testing of the system can be done any time.

However, to be safer, at least until I can verify the above, I am not
scheduling final completion and inspection by the local Building Dept.

Later, I will ask SDG&E to inspect in January and get their permission
letter that allows the system to be actually "placed in service".

[garygid]

CAUTION:
Apparently the IRS "placed in service" date is when it is ready to be used as intendid,
but it does not actually have to be used.
The IRS "date of operation" is apparenty when it actually gets used.

Apparently a house built, ready to be occupied, but not yet occupied,
is considered by the IRS to be "placed in service".

SO,
Do NOT complete the construction before January.
Mine still has things to install and test, and wiring yet to be completed.

[JimmyDreams]

Jimmy,
No, No.
Get the design done quickly, and apply to reserve the CA rebate ASAP,
to try and get the tail end of the $2.20 per kW, if it is still available.
Next rebate tier is only $1.90 per kW (all are "derated" AC kW, not DC kW).

Then, you have 12 months to finish and actually file to get the rebate.

Gary...

I'm doing the PBI rebate, so I'm already locked in at $.34/kWh I produce. That lock is good for one year.

As for the IRS determining when something is ready to be placed in service....what are they gonna do? Come out and inspect the system on Dec 30th? If all the inspections and paperwork aren't complete (thereby not 'ready'), the system can't be commissioned. The commissioning date is the date I'll use as the date the system was placed in service.

JimmyD

[DonC]

Gary...

I'm doing the PBI rebate, so I'm already locked in at $.34/kWh I produce. That lock is good for one year.

As for the IRS determining when something is ready to be placed in service....what are they gonna do? Come out and inspect the system on Dec 30th? If all the inspections and paperwork aren't complete (thereby not 'ready'), the system can't be commissioned. The commissioning date is the date I'll use as the date the system was placed in service.

JimmyD
Since I started all this by pointing out that the rescue plan eliminated the cap, here's my best interpretation of how this works.

Basically Jimmy I think you are correct. If you haven't received the approval to turn the system on then it cannot be placed in service. Using Gary's building as an example, if the house was constructed but didn't have a certificate of occupancy then it wouldn't be ready to be used. It would be placed in service when you received the CO. If I remember correctly the final payment to the installer is due when the final interconnection documents are issued. Until you make that payment and have the authorization you can't technically interconnect, and until you get the authorization you are legally proscribed from turning the system on.

Also, if I remember correctly the IRS has an example for the solar credit which talks about installation being done in one year and finished in the next. In this case the system would be placed in service in the subsequent year. Unfortunately I can't find that at the moment.

My guess is that the solar companies will be on this in a flash because otherwise all kinds of people are going to be cancelling jobs, which would not be a good thing. So I'd call them on Monday and get them to come up with a solution. I'm sure they're working on one this weekend. If they're not I'd be looking at a different company.

Finally, as to your question, the panels and the installation charges are all included for the credit. No issue there.

[JimmyDreams]

DonC...

I'm sure between my installer and myself, we'll be able to come up with something. We DO have a final payment due upon certification and commissioning. But with all the work remaining to do AND all the holidays, etc., I think it'll be easy to manage what I want.

I ALSO have the (albiet small) leverage of my web-site that I have up. The installer knows that I'm putting the install on the web, and that I'm recommending them. I can just as easily NOT recommend them if they refuse to play ball with me on this issue.

The difference is close to $14,000 back to me for the rebate. If they try and strongarm me, I'll squawk loud and long (and wide, using the internet!) And before anyone reading this thinks I'm taking advantage of some gov't program.....realize that I'm putting out a LOOOOOTT of $$$ for this entire setup. The rebate USED to be 40% many years ago!!

JimmyD

[garygid]

I am working on adding the RS485 communication/monitoring
card to the SunnyBoy Inverter. The Sunny Data free software
should do some gathering of data, but I am not yet sure how much.

And, then there is the WebBridge software which looks quite nice
and one can see a lot of energy production data with just a Browser.
Apparently it requires Excel 2000 on your local computer.

[JimmyDreams]

I am working on adding the RS485 communication/monitoring
card to the SunnyBoy Inverter. The Sunny Data free software
should do some gathering of data, but I am not yet sure how much.

And, then there is the WebBridge software which looks quite nice
and one can see a lot of energy production data with just a Browser.
Apparently it requires Excel 2000 on your local computer.

I'm going to be using SunPower's own data monitoring system. The web-based version of it seems (from the one screen shot I've seen of it anyway) very basic. But I'm assuming that since the data has to get to the router, and that since SunPower inverters are usually SunnyBoy inverters under a different name, that I'll be able to find a way to extract all the data I need.

I hope so, anyway. :rolleye0003:

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jimmy,
It might be good to ask them to detail exactly what moniforing
hardware and software you will be getting, and the associated charges.
Might be $1000 for hardware and $1000 for 5-years of monitoring?
Let me know, PM or call.
Thanks

[JimmyDreams]

Jimmy,
It might be good to ask them to detail exactly what moniforing
hardware and software you will be getting, and the associated charges.
Might be $1000 for hardware and $1000 for 5-years of monitoring?
Let me know, PM or call.
Thanks

The equipment is still in beta-testing, and as a beta-tester, I'm getting the equipment and install for free. I've seen nothing concerning monthly charges, etc.

Once they're done with beta testing, there MAY be a monthly fee, but I doubt it. Either way, I'll already have the equipment and it'll be installed. :jumping0007: If they suddenly try to charge me for the equipment, I'll judge the value of what it does and decide accordingly. I want SOME kind of monitoring, though.

I've looked at the cards and equipment/knowledge for monitoring Sunnyboy inverters.....it looks fairly complicated. And expensive. I'm guessing my setup won't be much different. But since I got in under the beta-test, the hardest part (and most expensive) will be taken care of for me.

I'll let you know exactly what and how the monitoring works with my setup when it's done.

JimmyD

[DonC]

I think the Sunny Beam costs about $500. It's gives the information which is available from the inverter.

[garygid]

The old Sunny Beam only works with older inverters.
It keeps a month of data and supports up to 4 inverters.
Bluetooth range is/was a significant limitation.
The newer inverters will not work with it
It might be a discontinued item.

A new "2008" Sunny Beam model is supposed to arrive by roughly
Q1 next year (2009). It should keep 100 days of data, and support
something like 16 inverters. However, the Bluetooth range is likely
to continue to be a problem. If the price is $300 it is good, however
if it is $700 or so, them ... not quite so good.

It can connect to a PC via USB and report the data up to the
Sunny Portal (is that free to use?).

I believe that the instantaneous kW, the kWh for the day,
and the total lifetime kWh are collected and reported.
However, I have not seen any mention of the Vpv (voltage
from the PV array) or Ipv (curent) being gathered, but maybe it is.

---------
I will be using the RS485 Card ($134 + tax and shipping) to wire to a small,
older, low-power PC, trying to connect via a $27 RS485 to USB converter
that creates a virtual COMM port in the PC.
Then, the free Sunny Data program can gather all the data.

Once Sunny Data has collected the data, the free WebBridge software
should work (currently required MS Excel 2000) to get a nice data display
(current and historical) that can be accessed from any web browser.

[JimmyDreams]

The old Sunny Beam only works with older inverters.
It keeps a month of data and supports up to 4 inverters.
Bluetooth range is/was a significant limitation.
The newer inverters will not work with it
It might be a discontinued item.

A new "2008" Sunny Beam model is supposed to arrive by roughly
Q1 next year (2009). It should keep 100 days of data, and support
something like 16 inverters. However, the Bluetooth range is likely
to continue to be a problem. If the price is $300 it is good, however
if it is $700 or so, them ... not quite so good.

It can connect to a PC via USB and report the data up to the
Sunny Portal (is that free to use?).

I believe that the instantaneous kW, the kWh for the day,
and the total lifetime kWh are collected and reported.
However, I have not seen any mention of the Vpv (voltage
from the PV array) or Ipv (curent) being gathered, but maybe it is.

---------
I will be using the RS485 Card ($134 + tax and shipping) to wire to a small,
older, low-power PC, trying to connect via a $27 RS485 to USB converter
that creates a virtual COMM port in the PC.
Then, the free Sunny Data program can gather all the data.

Once Sunny Data has collected the data, the free WebBridge software
should work (currently required MS Excel 2000) to get a nice data display
(current and historical) that can be accessed from any web browser.

Well, make sure you post your data somewhere or make it available. I'd love to see it! I'll do the same once mine is up and running.

JimmyD

[garygid]

Info and downloads on the LiveSolar WebBridge:
www.livesolar.net

Some live solar systems (http://www.livesolar.net/sumpage.htm)being monitored.

A nice display (http://home.comcast.net/~echudoba/wb40/wbpage.htm)of a one-inverter system.

These look like very nice displays of PV generation activity.
I will keep you posted as I learn to install and use it.

[JimmyDreams]

Info and downloads on the LiveSolar WebBridge:
www.livesolar.net

Some live solar systems (http://www.livesolar.net/sumpage.htm)being monitored.

A nice display (http://home.comcast.net/~echudoba/wb40/wbpage.htm)of a one-inverter system.

These look like very nice displays of PV generation activity.
I will keep you posted as I learn to install and use it.

gary...

I've been watching livesolar.ner for a few years now. Unfortunately, the software that Mr. Prosser wrote to convert the data to that nicely displayed page doesn't work on Macs. :(

I COULP port the data through an old PC, but I don't want to have to power a PC for something that my Mac could (should?) do, or just to duplicate what SunPower will provide.

I will wait and see how indepth my data display can be through SunPower and go from there. If it's too basic and not what I want, I'll explore other options.

This is my favorite solar setup, using SunTracker panels that track the sun. VERY cool movie: http://stampededrive.net/Videos/solar-8-29-2007.wmv

JimmyD

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Some possible very inexpensive solar PV cells:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/10/10/cheapest-inkjet-solar-cells/

[garygid]

The LiveSolar program is an Excel workbook (several spreadsheets and some Visual Basic macros in one file) that run to gather the data and prepare the graphs and web page(s). He gathers data from the Actual.txt file that is produced by the Sunny Data program, and he can read some external KYZ kWh meters.

I hope to rewrite the application in Visual Basic 6 so that the MS Excell is no longer needed. Then, if possible, I might eliminate the Sunny Data program. Once I have that, it might be possible to port it all to the MAC.

Then, there are some RS485 kWh meters at www.kwhmeters.com that I will try to support. An "iSerial" RS485 to TCP/IP Converter there will support reading the meters from anywhere on the Web, and it might be possible to read the SunnyBoy inverters (via their RS485 card) remotely also.

[JimmyDreams]

For anyone following my solar install, the electrical service upgrade is complete. The roof hardware (racks, mounting hardware, etc.) will start to go in tomorrow.

I've update my website, it can be found at

www.jjhamilton.com/solar

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jimmy,

Nice pictures, Thanks.

When I get some time, I want to add a "solar" section to my web site.
I plan to show samples of all of the documents that one has to create
and submit.

[n_dawg]

Very cool site, JimmyDreams. I wonder though if your A/C usage is going to go up with the removal of those palm trees. :scared0008: You might look into a little solar-powered attic vent to help counteract that.

[garygid]

The shading provided by the solar panels should help offset the loss of the trees in their shading of the roof.
However, the additional sun-heating through the windows and walls will mean a lot more heat inside the house.
When I added just one large (4' x 8') skylight (my wife wanted to brighten up the living room) there was a LOT more heat dumped into the house each day.
At least Jimmy left one palm tree.

I have two pine trees, one maybe 40' and the other perhaps 60' tall.
Does anybody know if they will survive if I top them both down to 30 feet high?
They shade my solar panels in the winter. I hate to cut them, but they are directly south of my panels, and only about 40' away.
Thanks for any advice.

[3-4-me]

I have two pine trees, one maybe 40' and the other perhaps 60' tall.
Does anybody know if they will survive if I top them both down to 30 feet high?
They shade my solar panels in the winter. I hate to cut them, but they are directly south of my panels, and only about 40' away.
Thanks for any advice.

I've seen large pine trees topped(pretty much cut in half). They put out new growth right below the cut.
They don't look very attractive, but they should be able to be shaped after awhile.
You should contact an arborist though, and get there opinion.

[JimmyDreams]

Very cool site, JimmyDreams. I wonder though if your A/C usage is going to go up with the removal of those palm trees. :scared0008: You might look into a little solar-powered attic vent to help counteract that.

i HAVE noticed the house gets warmer without the trees, but I'm guessing once the panels go in, they'll provide more shade than the trees ever did!!

(I got off work at 6am, and the solar people were knocking on the door at 8am to get up on the roof to install some conduit for the wiring....sigh):scared0008:

JimmyD

[garygid]

I was more concerned that the pine trees might die
rather than about their shape. They are friends.

I will try to find an expert. Thanks.

[n_dawg]

i HAVE noticed the house gets warmer without the trees, but I'm guessing once the panels go in, they'll provide more shade than the trees ever did!!


I dunno, those panels get awfully hot. Sure it'll be shade, but your roof will also be inches away from ambient+60°F metal. It's always better to have them up off the roof so air can flow underneath. The high temperature makes the panels less efficient.

The trees come with evaporative coolers built in. ;)

[garygid]

I had my panels installed 6" (or more) above the roof,
hopefully for better cooling.
Yes, closer to the roof tends to look slightly better.
On the back of my roof, looks was not a signifiant factor.

[JimmyDreams]

From what I can tell, my panels will be mounted about 3-4 inches away from the roof. My roof is situated such that the ocean breeze will blow almost directly across (and underneath) the arrays from the side. So I'm pretty well set up for maximum cooling without going overboard.

I've got the pics of the roof racks, wiring being run, etc. I'll update the website this morning (hopefully).

JimmyD

www.jjhamilton.com/solar

[JimmyDreams]

The link is
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar/

Cheers, Gary

Fixed it, Gary. Thanks.

I'm also redesigning the entire page. Hopefully it'll be done in the next few days. :happy0025:

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jim,
Good pictures of the rack system on the roof. Thanks!

Your rack system seems to support the panels at the very top and bottom of the panel, and share the in-between rail with the panels above and below.
So, exact placement of the rails would seem to be more critical for that type of rail system.

My rail system uses two rails for each row, one rail about a foot down from the top of the 6-foot panel, and the other rail about one foot up from the bottom of the panel. Then, each panel is clamped to the rails in 4 places, two clamps on each rail, one on either side of the 39-inch wide panel.

Maybe I can get some of my pictures up in the next week or two - or over Thanksgiving weekend.

I want to include samples (or scans) of the required paperwork, so that others can get a better feeling for the preparation involved.

I am still hoping to get my system on-line in about two months.
I am working on the monitoring system now.

Keep up the great work.

[JimmyDreams]

Jim,
Good pictures of the rack system on the roof. Thanks!

Your rack system seems to support the panels at the very top and bottom of the panel, and share the in-between rail with the panels above and below.
So, exact placement of the rails would seem to be more critical for that type of rail system.

My rail system uses two rails for each row, one rail about a foot down from the top of the 6-foot panel, and the other rail about one foot up from the bottom of the panel. Then, each panel is clamped to the rails in 4 places, two clamps on each rail, one on either side of the 39-inch wide panel.

Maybe I can get some of my pictures up in the next week or two - or over Thanksgiving weekend.

I want to include samples (or scans) of the required paperwork, so that others can get a better feeling for the preparation involved.

I am still hoping to get my system on-line in about two months.
I am working on the monitoring system now.

Keep up the great work.

Gary..

That's the way I see the panels as going in. I know that they were very specific about rail placement, but i was assuming that was mostly so that the lag bolt went into the joist. They tell me that that is most important not for load bearing, but rather for keeping the panels from flying off the roof during wind events!! :scared0011:

The only drawback I see to the 2 rails-per-line that your installer is using is more roof penetrations and high rack costs. Once the panels are up, no one will know how many rails are under them, so I don't think it really matters.

I'm still working on the update to the web site. I've got the new layout down, I'm just having trouble making the software do EXACTLY what I want with the pics. I'll either figure it out or find a different way to do what I want to do. :rolleye0003: I'll let everyone know when it's completed.

JimmyD

[garygid]

The generation of AC power is normally done by a DC to AC inverter that is "connected" to the electrical utility power grid.
The main things that the utility requires are:
1. A manual, lockable disconnect switch (with fully visible contacts to verify the disconnected state) between the "generator" (the inverter) and the power grid, and
2: An automatic shutdown of the "generator" whenever the grid begins to "fail" (even a brownout).

Usually an inverter can be configured (possibly like the SunnyBoy inverter, by adding a "communication" piggyback plug-in card) to report status and other AC and DC generation information.
The SunnyBoy offers an RS232 or an RS485 Card (overpriced, at about $150), which the inverter monitors for commands or queries, and then responds with total kWh, current AC power (watts) being produced, the PV input's DC voltage and current.
This gives almost enough information to monitor the AC generation process well.

Your electrical consumption rate throughout the day and each day's total consumption are the other parameter often of interest.
Sure, manually reading the utility's net-flow meter and your own total generation each day will give you an idea of your actual electrical consumption, but it does not show when the power was consumed during the day, and is not emotionally satisfying to a "geek".

So, adding a meter (that can be monitored) between the utility's meter and your service panel's main breaker would be nice.
Also, it should be relatively easy to install without having to disconnect nasty, thick, 240-volt wiring.

Happily, such a meter is just now being offered by www.kwhmeters.com where I just put one on order. Using the snap-on CT (current transformer) that they offer, I do not need to disconnect any wiring. Buy two of these snap-on, 200 amp CTs (13 mm center hole) for $30 each, and the new 240-volt "V2" meter (for $140) that will measure and report reverse-flow power, and I should be able to clip on the two CTs and mount the meter inside the garage on the wall near the back side of the service panel.

This "EKM-25EDS-N V2" meter includes a 1200 baud RS485 "network" connection, so that I should be able to monitor both the SunnyBoy inverter and the EKM meter with just one RS485 "network".
I plan on using an RS485 to TCP/IP converter ($70) so that my PV system can be monitored from anywhere on the Internet. However, I have not yet completed the required software, but I am working on it (somewhat slowly).

In the mean time, an RS485 to USB (for $20, or RS485 to RS232 for $10) converter can be used and the SMA Sunny Data software (via a "com" port) can get data from the inverter. The USB converter's driver creates a virtual Com Port in the computer (and drivers exist most platforms).

More later as I get more working.
It will be exciting to see my Apteras "drink" from my solar "well". :)

[garygid]

To locate one pier here, they "perforated" my roof about 30 times, just to find the joist underneath. But, they fixed it up well, I was told.

[JimmyDreams]

To locate one pier here, they "perforated" my roof about 30 times, just to find the joist underneath. But, they fixed it up well, I was told.


YIKES! I was at work when they put up the rails, but I can't see any evidence of anything other than one penetration per block. They have chalk lines etc. on the roof marking the joists, etc.

Then again, I have asphalt shingles, so maybe it's easy to peel one up and 'hide' the perforations. Beats me....all I know is that the job is guaranteed leakproof by the installer. :)

JimmyD

[garygid]

I have a similar no-leak guarantee, but would rather not have any leaks
for them to come back in 5 or 10 years to fix (along with the probably
extensive damage caused by a hard-to-detect leak).

My roof has a noticeably steeper pitch than yours (about 30 degrees)
and the joists are not a continuous run from the bottom to the peak.
They jog at least once, and sometimes twice on the way up, and
apparently the builder was not very fussy about the spacing.

Accessing the attic for the right-side section of panels was a great
help on that side, but still rather frustrating. I specifically told them
about the "jogging" rafters when they did the initial site survey,
but they did end up drilling a lot of extra "locator" holes.

Anticipating such extra holes, I specified that they fill each of
the "locator" holes. They ended up using some tar-type stuff
and screwing a "concrete" screw into each hole.

Near the top left, over an interior wall, where the joists are in an area
that cannot be accessed from the interior to actually see where
they are, they had a difficult, and rather frustrating time.

However, I did get a picture of the perforated asphalt roof shingle
that they removed. They used some different "goo" when repairing
that area and filling those holes.

They said that they had done a good job of repair and sealing.

But, there was my initial shock of, "You did WHAT!". :scared0011:

[garygid]

I can now read the EKM V1 and V2 kWh meters, locally or remotely.
Now, I will try to read the SunnyBoy (SMA) Inverters.

[JimmyDreams]

I can now read the EKM V1 and V2 kWh meters, locally or remotely.
Now, I will try to read the SunnyBoy (SMA) Inverters.

Which is exactly why I'm glad I got in on the beta-test of SunPower's monitoring system....

I don't have the expertise nor time to figure out those monitors. True, in the end, you'll have more access to more data than I will, but I can live with that. I'm cautiously optimistic that in addition to the 'spoon fed' info SunPower will give me, I'll be able to dig deeper and find ALL the data that the inverter sends....then it's just a matter of what I do with the info and how I display it all!!!

Are you testing the meters by having them read an extension cord or something? Your panels and system are not up and running yet, are they??

JimmyD

[garygid]

My system is not yet up-and-running.
Unfortunately there have been some delays.
At least I have the panels themselves, because I hear that
they (at least some brands) are in short supply right now.

However, the EKM meter people have free software to download
and have five "v1" meters and two "v2" meters on-line and hooked to
the Internet so that the demo programs (and now I) can read them.
Only their newest "v2" meters can properly measure Reverse kWh.

Even though an SMA Inverter is not able to produce power, I assume that
if it gets sufficient DC voltage (and a trickle of current) from the Solar
Panels, it will "wake up" and respond to queries, and report that it has
an "error" condition (no grid AC detected), is getting DC voltage (and
how much), and ... I am not sure what else. However, when the
"sun goes down" (the DC voltage input drops too low), the inverter
probably "goes to sleep" and no longer answers any questions.

I have not yet been able to test this on my Inverter, but maybe
the RS485 Card will get installed sometime soon, and I can get
some wires connected to the "monitoring" port. Then, I might
be able to do some communication testing and development,
even though the Inverter is not yet actually able to generate.

[garygid]

Also, there are several Inverter-monitoring or Meter-monitoring
solutions that work out of the box. Connecting the RS485 Card to
a SunnyBoy Controller (or to a PC running the Sunny Data program),
one can use the (free, I believe) Sunny Portal on the Internet
for monitoring the SunnyBoy Inverter.

However, I wanted to monitor both a grid-side meter (and maybe
other meters) and the inverter, and prepare the results for display
on the web, all with one program ... just to have all the data for
my generation and consumption, and to learn more.

I also wanted to be able to monitor a system anywhere.

If you have a working SunnyBoy and would like to experiment
with local and remote monitoring, please PM me. Maybe we
can work together.

[JimmyDreams]

Well, they're done with my solar PV install. The only thing that is left is the inspections and for the installer to add the internet monitoring.
:jumping0007:
I've updated my web site at www.jjhamilton.com/solar with pics etc., if you're interested.

More to come, I'm sure!!!

;)

JimmyD

[daddio]

Here's a photo of our, now three year old, 8 kw system (in NJ)
http://www.photoshow.com/watch/uD5iR2cN
The pitch of the roof allows the snow to slide off the panels (self-cleaning)
We have two Sunny Boy (SB3800U) Inverters in the basement.. all quiet and trouble free the system pays 100% of our electric bill during the summer months (here in NJ).

Good Luck (It's the right thing to do)

[n_dawg]

Here's a photo of our, now three year old, 8 kw system (in NJ)
http://www.photoshow.com/watch/uD5iR2cN

Most. Complicated. <img>. Ever.

Very cool. How much snow do you get there yearly?

[daddio]

Was the link hard to open? I set it for public access???
In the spring I will add some roof component photos....

27" annual avg., but last year was only a few inches.. It seems the amounts are decreasing

[JimmyDreams]

Here's a photo of our, now three year old, 8 kw system (in NJ)
http://www.photoshow.com/watch/uD5iR2cN
The pitch of the roof allows the snow to slide off the panels (self-cleaning)
We have two Sunny Boy (SB3800U) Inverters in the basement.. all quiet and trouble free the system pays 100% of our electric bill during the summer months (here in NJ).

Good Luck (It's the right thing to do)

Nice! But what a dissappointment.....nice music, picture panning, graphics....I was expecting a compilation of photos of the 'guts' of the system.

But no. One picture. (sigh) :D :jumping0001:

Ok, enough of my geekiness. That must have been one HECK of a hard install, that high up and that much of the roof covered!! Can you imagine the installers getting near the end and saying "oops, we forgot (insert job here) on the middle row!" :scared0011:

It IS the right thing to do. Why the federal gov't or individual states don't mandate implementation of solar in new construction is beyond me. ESPECIALLY in states that get tons of sun. (shrug)

I can't wait to turn mine on. :happy0025: Thanks for posting the link....I always LOVE seeing other installs. (/geekmodeoff)

JimmyD

[daddio]

Yes... I was finding stainless steel nuts, fittings and even tools for months later in the lanscaping. But they had their act together using a safety harness for the installers and they had a 30' elevator to get each panel up there safely. What I liked best with their technique (which I will add to the slide show) was: EACH aluminum post from the panel rail system, which penetrated into my roof were 1)caulked with silicone and 2) also protected by a type of roof pipe flashing where the base is tucked under the shingle and the rubber shirt seals around each aluminum post. Something like this:http://www.duraflo.com/roofing/images/aluminum.gif
Many other installers only drilled into the roof joist and caulked around each of these (many) aluminum posts

[JimmyDreams]

Yes... I was finding stainless steel nuts, fittings and even tools for months later in the lanscaping. But they had their act together using a safety harness for the installers and they had a 30' elevator to get each panel up there safely. What I liked best with their technique (which I will add to the slide show) was: EACH aluminum post from the panel rail system, which penetrated into my roof were 1)caulked with silicone and 2) also protected by a type of roof pipe flashing where the base is tucked under the shingle and the rubber shirt seals around each aluminum post. Something like this:http://www.duraflo.com/roofing/images/aluminum.gif
Many other installers only drilled into the roof joist and caulked around each of these (many) aluminum posts

I was at work when my roof penetrations were done, but from what I can see, my guys used caulk and flashing. I don't know about any rubber seal. But my rail mountings look to be a very good design....MUCH better than just drill and caulk! We just got through some major winter storms with almost 2 inches of rain....ZERO LEAKS, so I'm happy!!:jumping0007:

Until you actually HAVE an install done, I don't think most people understand all the little things that go into a PV solar system. They just look at price per kWh and that's about it. That's why there are so many 'average' installers and only a few really GOOD ones.

JimmyD

[speculawyer]

We may be on the verge of a solar revolution. If these thin-film panels are as cheap as they say and cost $1/watt, then these systems are pretty cost effective and will pay for themselves over a relatively short time. All that will be needed is some low interest lows and people will be installing them like crazy. However, they'll need to massively increase the production of such panels.

Panels that cheap plus an Aptera will mean that people will be able to make one big up-front investment and then be able to drive thousands of miles for many years without paying another penny to anyone.

[KarenRei]

We just got through some major winter storms with almost 2 inches of rain....ZERO LEAKS, so I'm happy!!:jumping0007:

That took me a minute; I was trying to figure out whether I misread "winter" or "rain", and then remembered that you're from CA where you get rain in the winter, not snow ;) Where I am, wind chills are forecast for -34F tomorrow... during the *day*. :P

[JimmyDreams]

That took me a minute; I was trying to figure out whether I misread "winter" or "rain", and then remembered that you're from CA where you get rain in the winter, not snow ;) Where I am, wind chills are forecast for -34F tomorrow... during the *day*. :P

Then you'll REALLY appreciate this one, Karen...

I went outside to grab some more firewood for the fire (my partner and I are doing 'movie night' at home with the Apple TV). I went outside and could see my breath...I mean, it was FREEZING! The fire felt WONDERFUL....and then I took at look at my weather station. It was 44 degrees outside!!!:scared0011:

Yep...44 degrees and a fire was necessity. It doesn't take long for SoCal to turn you into a complete weather-wuss!

Enjoy the wind chill tomorrow. I'll think of you when I make the decision to drive to work with the top up or down. :)

JimmyD

[paddler13]

Speculawyer. I'd love to assure you that thin film is the future but I've been associated with the solar business in one way or another for over 20 years and for at least the last 15 years the phrase "thin film PV at $1/watt will really boost solar power" (or some variant thereof) has ranked right up there with "the check's in the mail" for reliability.

I've owned and used experimental thin film panels from one of the many businesses that tried and went bust playing with thin-film. Right now, the absolute best bang for the buck is "traditional" (interesting being able to say that) crystalline PV panels, either single crystal or multi-crystaline. There are all kinds of news reports, always way overblown and reported by people who have little or no knowledge of PV, claiming that this or that company in Canada or Japan or somewhere is "just about" to release a 50% efficient PV panel, or thin-film at $1/watt (that one is popular because it is always treated as if it is a new development) but none of them ever go anywhere.

There is a limit to the efficiency in silicon PV and right now the 15-18% range of crystalline is the most reliable with the best life and best bang for the buck.

And even at the current prices PV is still a great idea, especially for an EV.

[JimmyDreams]

I'd add that (kinda like computers), if you wait for 'the next best thing' in solar, you'll find you never actually put anything up!

If I sit back and think about all the sunny days I've experienced in SoCal since I got here 8 years ago and how I wasted every one of those days by not having a PV solar system, I cringe. I wouldn't want to do the same thing by waiting for what may or may not be right around the corner. But I DO see the point of being stuck saying "I spent $40K on a PV system on Monday, and on Friday, the new system would generate the same power for $5K" Talk about a bummer!! :(

If you can afford the initial $$ to start the process, I say go for it.

[paddler13]

Remember also that it's $40,000 minus the rebates available, which in some places can be as much as 65% of installation costs.

[KarenRei]

Right now, the absolute best bang for the buck is "traditional" (interesting being able to say that) crystalline PV panels, either single crystal or multi-crystaline.

Well, back before Solarbuzz hid their panel market price data (a year or so ago?), the cheapest panels I was finding were Aten Solar's amorphous silicon. Low efficiency, but panels so cheap that it more than makes up for it (if you've got the area).

I recall that the info that I ran into while looking into Nanosolar's deals with German municipal utilities looked like they really were selling the panels for about $1/W. Reportedly their production costs are a small fraction of that. Well, we'll know for sure once they scale up enough to sell panels on the open market, I suppose.

BTW, has anyone seen their takedown of Solyndra?

http://www.nanosolar.com/blog3/?p=199

Ouch!

Basic summary: "There's another company out there, which we won't name, which is making tubular solar panels. However, they're doing it in a stupid manner that needlessly complicates the picture, and here's this really trivial way in which you can do it for a fraction of the price. We made some of our own, and this unnamed company's patents are so poorly done that they don't cover our version, so we could undercut their market at will. However, we have no plans to do so because solar tubes are a stupid idea for these five thousand reasons..."

Another neat thing from their company blog: one of their engineers recently did the math and found that if you compare the CIGS material and how much energy a typical install will generate over its warranty period, it's five times as much as you'd get from using an equivalent amount of enriched uranium in a typical US nuclear reactor. That's a neat little factoid. :)

[paddler13]

I think the jury's still out on Nanosolar. As I said there has been no shortage of companies selling thin-film but they've never lasted, partly because the product has an unpredictable lifespan and highly variable outputs over that life. I participate in the PV installers listserv and once I hear the current crop of professionals praising these things and installing them in quantity I'll believe the hype. At this point the pros are still very doubtful of nanosolar's viability and the reliability and feasibility of their product in real world applications.

[KarenRei]

Well, the peer-reviewed research on CIGS in general is incredible in terms of lifespan -- better than silicon. Some studies show power *increasing* over time. Now, that doesn't mean that Company X won't end up producing panels that fall apart in the slightest wind or whatnot, but at least as far as the chemistry goes, it's very stable.

Also, not all thin films are the same. Amorphous silicon != CdTe != CIGS.

Oh, and for right now, the only way you'll hear about Nanosolar cell installs on a listserv is if that listserv has members who do installs for municipal plants in Germany. Again, not a comment on whether they're any good or not -- just an observation.

[garygid]

Finally ... I received enough paperwork today from my installer company
to be able to call and schedule a Building Permit inspection, which should
happen sometime on Friday 2 Jan 2009.

If the inspection goes OK, then I will still need the remainder of the
paperwork, with the revised generation extimate (I substantially shortened
two tall trees that shaded the panels), and then schedule and pass
SDG&E's inspection and get their "blessing" to actually turn it ON.

Soon, the meter will spin backward :), driven by the 33 Sharp PV
panels on the roof, and a SunnyBoy 7000U grid-tie controller.

[speculawyer]

I recall that the info that I ran into while looking into Nanosolar's deals with German municipal utilities looked like they really were selling the panels for about $1/W. Reportedly their production costs are a small fraction of that. Well, we'll know for sure once they scale up enough to sell panels on the open market, I suppose.

Due to a fraud scandal in Spain, it is possible that First Solar's Thin-film panels may hit the open market. (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/first-solar-panels-piling-up-5365.html) That would be nice to see.

[KarenRei]

Sweet news (unfortunate for the businesses involved, of course, but good for consumers). First Solar's tech isn't as interesting as NanoSolar's, but lower prices are lower prices!

[JimmyDreams]

Finally ... I received enough paperwork today from my installer company
to be able to call and schedule a Building Permit inspection, which should
happen sometime on Friday 2 Jan 2009.

If the inspection goes OK, then I will still need the remainder of the
paperwork, with the revised generation extimate (I substantially shortened
two tall trees that shaded the panels), and then schedule and pass
SDG&E's inspection and get their "blessing" to actually turn it ON.

Soon, the meter will spin backward :), driven by the 33 Sharp PV
panels on the roof, and a SunnyBoy 7000U grid-tie controller.

Congrats. My meter should be spinning backward by the end of next week. :happy0025:

Got pics?

[JimmyDreams]

Sweet news (unfortunate for the businesses involved, of course, but good for consumers). First Solar's tech isn't as interesting as NanoSolar's, but lower prices are lower prices!

Price is only part of the equation. The thin-film solar technology (as it sits right now anyway) IS cheaper than regular PV panels, but they produce far less wattage, so you need a LOT more room to utilize them.

The next few years will be interesting for all forms of RE.

[garygid]

First Solar's panels are reported to be about 10% vs 16% efficient,
so you need about 40% more room ....

Also, it is said that the panels are now available for "consumer" sized
projects in at least Arizona, and perhaps California.

[garygid]

JimmyD,
Here are three overview pictures:

Panels (33 in three strings of 11), trying to avoid chimney shadow:
197

Mounting the Panels on 6-inch (and higher) standoffs for better cooling:
198

The Electrical system, DC feed from roof, Converter, Generation Meter, and AC Shutoff:
199

More details later.

[JimmyDreams]

First Solar's panels are reported to be about 10% vs 16% efficient,
so you need about 40% more room ....

Also, it is said that the panels are now available for "consumer" sized
projects in at least Arizona, and perhaps California.

40% more room can make or break a residential installation. I'm sure they'll get the efficiency up as they improve on the design.

NICE pics, Gary, thanks!

Got your voicemail. I'll try and call you tomorrow when I get a break from work.

JimmyD

[garygid]

Jimmy,
I have a lot more pictures if anybody is interested.
Yes, call me when you can.

The Building inspection went OK this morning, so now I just need
the SDG&E inspection to start my Electricity Generation ...

and then, my Aptera 2e to help "eat" it!

[Matthijs]

Great pictures Gary! I would love to see more of your installation. Here in Holland things are not looking good for solar. The subsidies have run out and due to unstable policy and allot of forces against solar it is not known when the subsidy will return.

When someone is interested in the situation in Holland compared to Germany this is a great site: polderpv.nl (http://www.polderpv.nl/waaromdezewebsite.htm#website)

[garygid]

From your web site link, I see that there is interest in your country
of doing monitoring of smaller PV systems.

Since this is not really Aptera related, I just started a "PV Generation
Monitoring" Topic in the "Off Topic Discussion" Forum ... see:
http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=2021

However, a EV charging meter of the type mentioned there
could be used to monitor charging of the Aptera (or other EVs).

[scottsim]

http://tahoevictorian.com/solar.jpg

Here is shot of our family (grin), in front of our solar array....I have told Aptera that it would be a great promo shot with the car driven between the panels (vineyard in background)

7.8KW, 44 Kyocera 200W panels, 2 ground-mounted arrays.

Yearly power production was about 300KW over total use...more stats available.

Scott

[garygid]

Wow, 4 strings of 11 panels!

What inverter are you using?
Is it a simple grid-tie?
How do you monitor generation?
Do you monitor usage, or net?

If you PM me, we could chat on the phone.
Thanks, Gary

[scottsim]

two arrays of 22 panels, two Sunny Boy 3800 inverters....>30K lbs of CO2 saved in one year...wll try to PM...

[scottsim]

My Solar monitored with a TOU meter....was set at 50000 last January, total at end of year was ~ 49700, peak usage around 46400...December really hurt the totals...

If California/PGE ever directly reimburses for excess generation, I will put in an acre of panels...

Scott

[garygid]

Most likely each SB inverter uses two parallel strings of 11 panels in series.
Having the 22 panels in a single series would produce over
the maximum voltage for a SunnyBoy inverter, I believe.

I have the SunnyBoy 7000U inverter, fed by three parallel
strings of 11 Sharp panels each.

Boy, am I anxious to see the meter dial spinning backward. :)

[garygid]

The Sacramento utility SMUD (www.smud.org) is the only
California utility that I know of that buys all the excess.

Does anybody know of another?

Is there any pending or upcoming legislation that would require all
the CA utilities to buy back all the excess generation at full rates?

[JimmyDreams]

http://tahoevictorian.com/solar.jpg

Here is shot of our family (grin), in front of our solar array....I have told Aptera that it would be a great promo shot with the car driven between the panels (vineyard in background)

7.8KW, 44 Kyocera 200W panels, 2 ground-mounted arrays.

Yearly power production was about 300KW over total use...more stats available.

Scott
VERY nice.

If I had the land, I'd do the same thing. My yard is tiny, so I'm limited to roof space.

I'd love to see more pics of the 'guts' of the system.....but then again, I'm a geek!!

[scottsim]

Jimmy/Gary,

Lemme give you an idea of what you are likely to see when you first hookup....
Assuming that you are both going to wind up with TOU meters?....

Before the utility comes to pull final switch (typically installer will ask you to wait), and before they change meters (if you are changing), you will see the dial moving backwards...I have video of that somewhere (I did not wait to pull switch)...When the PGE guy came out, he told me that now they do not require all the shutoffs at the meter (I also have shut-offs at the inverters).
On the TOU meter itself there is a bit of visual gratification, an arrow indicating which way power is flowing. There is also much more digitally cycling information. First is the total (instantaneous) KW/hr being produced minus that being used...best number I have seen for my system was approaching 6KW/hr...more often, an average on a sunny day just over 4KW/hr.
Then Date/Day followed by total (for me this is still since installation last year) KW this number is just produced-used power....Lastly is the peak power use, which indicates how good you are at not using power during peak periods and in some way (not fully understood by myself) affects your final bill...I know that my rate was set at 7, and I am not sure that this rate is still available.
I still get bills every month for ~$8 (all admin BS), and am supposed to get a yearly billing for any power use beyond my production...they still read the meter every month.

As far as CA legislation towards a more equitable solution of excess power produced, I am not aware of anything pending, but would be personally willing to help fight for this...One of the solar advocates I support is SolarNation...I am in a really good area for solar exposure and it is probably one of the highest $/acre (other than pot growing) activities I could do...Generally it has major benefits to the utility to have local production, as it limits the amount they will have to buy from (often out-of-state) producers. I am sure that PG&E will say that they helped with a rebate (~15K in my case), and so should not have to pay for excess generation....but in any analysis one can see that this philosophy does not encourage people to move to an alternate, non-polluting source of power, and encourages one to use up any excess not being paid for....Whew....

Scott

[JimmyDreams]

Jimmy/Gary,

Lemme give you an idea of what you are likely to see when you first hookup....
Assuming that you are both going to wind up with TOU meters?....

Before the utility comes to pull final switch (typically installer will ask you to wait), and before they change meters (if you are changing), you will see the dial moving backwards...I have video of that somewhere (I did not wait to pull switch)...When the PGE guy came out, he told me that now they do not require all the shutoffs at the meter (I also have shut-offs at the inverters).
On the TOU meter itself there is a bit of visual gratification, an arrow indicating which way power is flowing. There is also much more digitally cycling information. First is the total (instantaneous) KW/hr being produced minus that being used...best number I have seen for my system was approaching 6KW/hr...more often, an average on a sunny day just over 4KW/hr.
Then Date/Day followed by total (for me this is still since installation last year) KW this number is just produced-used power....Lastly is the peak power use, which indicates how good you are at not using power during peak periods and in some way (not fully understood by myself) affects your final bill...I know that my rate was set at 7, and I am not sure that this rate is still available.
I still get bills every month for ~$8 (all admin BS), and am supposed to get a yearly billing for any power use beyond my production...they still read the meter every month.

As far as CA legislation towards a more equitable solution of excess power produced, I am not aware of anything pending, but would be personally willing to help fight for this...One of the solar advocates I support is SolarNation...I am in a really good area for solar exposure and it is probably one of the highest $/acre (other than pot growing) activities I could do...Generally it has major benefits to the utility to have local production, as it limits the amount they will have to buy from (often out-of-state) producers. I am sure that PG&E will say that they helped with a rebate (~15K in my case), and so should not have to pay for excess generation....but in any analysis one can see that this philosophy does not encourage people to move to an alternate, non-polluting source of power, and encourages one to use up any excess not being paid for....Whew....

Scott

Scott...

I don't have TOU meters...just a meter for total kWh produced and my regular meter for the grid-tie usage. When we had the system on for testing, the grid-tie meter spun backwards at a nice satisfying speed AND it was late in the day 4 days before the shortest day of the year! I can't wait to see the total daily output on a long summer day...:jumping0007:

I am waiting for SDG&E to give me the final go-ahead to turn the switch. I really don't feel like being in court for manslaughter if someone were to get fried because my system was on when they didn't know it. A few more days won't hurt me. :happy0025:

As for buying back overproduced energy, I'm ALL for that. Although my roof space is kinda limited, I'd seriously consider putting up another string just to generate a small monthly check. Sooner or later, I think Ca will move toward payment for overproduction. Time will tell, though.

[ApteraStorm]

The Sacramento utility SMUD (www.smud.org) is the only
California utility that I know of that buys all the excess.

Does anybody know of another?

Is there any pending or upcoming legislation that would require all
the CA utilities to buy back all the excess generation at full rates?

I saw the link you provided in the other thread, thanks for that. I'll have to confirm if my friend indeed does have SMUD in which case he wants to put a bunch of panels on his 1/2 acre lot and make a little money.

I certainly hope there's legislation coming... seems like it should be a no-brainer. We were very unhappy when PG&E strangled the attempt at SMUD coming in to Yolo County a few years ago (with $11 million or some ridiculous sum of money). Then again, I don't think you guys in Sacramento liked the idea of SMUD expanding either. Too bad, I think we all lost there... except for PG&E.

[garygid]

I expect to use the simple Net-Metering rates,
not the more complex Time-Of-Day (TOD) rates.
Each utility company has different requirements and rates.

Then, my present mechanical meter, which can run backwards
when I generate more than I use, should be sufficient.

I have started a web site to detail much of my Solar PhotoVoltaic (PV)
System installation experience at my residence.
Of course, there are many systems and types of panels available,
and also many installers to chose from.

Some of the rules and building codes are not obvious, so some
experienced, professional consultation is highly recommended
if you attempt to do the installation yourself.

My site is http://SolarSaga.weebly.com/ but it is still under construction.

Any suggestions or questions are welcome.
Cheers, Gary

[garygid]

With the Federal tax credit for Solar PV Systems now at 30%
of the costs (no longer capped at $2000), and the CA rebate
probably at $1.90 per AC watt of "expected" generation
(I got $2.20 per watt), about half of the system is "paid" for you.

Why wait for the CA rebate to drop down to the next tier, at just
$1.60 per watt? I missed the $2.50 per watt tier.

[DonC]

I missed the $2.50 per watt tier.
The federal tax credit made up for that, big time.

[scottsim]

Indeed, it is getting better as far as rebates go...

But at somepoint, one needs to get on the bandwagon....No regrets here....>30K lbs of CO2 and probably 4-5K in power bills saved in '08.

Scott

[garygid]

Does anybody know (for sure) if any of the 2009-PV-installed
Federal Tax Credit can be applied (used) this coming April,
or if it all has to wait until taxes for 2009 are paid in 2010?

Or, can one reduce the estimated tax payments for the 2009 tax year
(that start in April)?

Or, can one reduce this January's estimated tax payment
(4th payment for 2008)?

[garygid]

The local Building Permit Department just inspected last Friday,
and the utility (SDG&E) company inspector was here today (Monday).

I was missing one plaque (a Plot Plan) required by SDG&E (but
not required by other utilities, I think), but that plaque was made
today and should come overnight, so I might be able to turn the
system on tomorrow (Tues), but maybe not in time to catch any rays.

But, in any case, very likely to be generating Wednesday! :jumping0007:

[DonC]

But, in any case, very likely to be generating Wednesday! :jumping0007:
Congrats Gary.

The credit is for 2009 taxes, assuming you're a calendar taxpayer. If you think about it the answer is axiomatic. The system has to be placed in service during 2009 so the credit earned by installing the system has to be applied to 2009 taxes. There is no "carry backward" credit.

As for your estimated tax payments, the rebate applies to 2009 taxes. You're free to reduce your estimated taxes by that amount but at the end of the year you will owe what you owe. Assuming you are good at estimating there is no reason why you shouldn't reduce your estimated taxes since, at the end of the year, your taxes will be lower.

[garygid]

There are "carry forward" credits, and I thought I had heard that
there were also some "carry backward" credits as well.

If not, this credit is not going to hasten the economic recovery very much.

Note: One seemingly-informed source says that the original 2006, 2007
version of this residential solar credit was carry-forward, but not carry-back.

[garygid]

At 4:00 pm the guy from SDG&E called and said it is OK to turn it ON.

Rather late in the day, so it is only generating 201 watts, but I
saw its "birth" as it moved the Generation-Meter barely off of 99999 kWh.

First full day of operation will be tomorrow, Wednesday.

I had gotten the RS485 daughter board installed in the Inverter,
and connected wires from a cut-in-half short Ethernet patch cable
into the SunnyBoy Inverter. This short cable runs through the outside
wall and into the garage.

I then added an Ethernet Coupler to connect a 75-foot cable which I
ran through the garage, into the house, and to my computer desk.
Using another Ethernet Coupler to connect to the remaining end of
the cut-in-half short patch cable, which I connected to an inexpensive
RS485-to-USB adapter. That completed the initial Hardware connection.

The software in the PC treats this connection like a com port.
I set 1200 baud and the Sunny Data program queried for Inverters
on the RS485 network, and found mine. I started logging just as
the voltage was falling with the near-setting sun.

Now, at 4:35 pm, we are down to 50 watts of generation - just a trickle.

But, IT'S ALIVE !!!

[scottsim]

congrats Gary!....few of the things we do seem so right...let it flow....:cool:

Scott

[JimmyDreams]

Congrats Gary...

Still waiting to hear from SDG&E on this end. Perhaps tomorrow......?