Durability, fiberglass and radar.

[KarenRei]

At the very least, they're encouraging white for that reason. But they've also expressed a willingness to offer some degree of options on this front.

Here's a thought to try on for size. This vehicle could be in service for a *long time* (let's hope they have durable upholstery inside!). Think about it: apart from any that might exist in the motor or other specific drive components or accessories, the only steel in this vehicle is in a few main structural elements. Those being strong and internal, they should degrade pretty slowly. AFAIK, fiberglass, if kept cool, can easily last decades (I've seen fiberglass pool manufacturers even *warranty* their pools for 25 years). A123 rates their battery packs for 10+ years and 7000+ cycles (and even then, you're not looking at that much loss of capacity), while LG Chem rates theirs for 40 years of normal use. Plus, with how small the pack is, if you had to replace it, it'd be a fiscally sound decision, and a lot wiser than replacing the car. If the StreetDeck system doesn't use a hard drive and doesn't need a fan, there'd be no moving parts in the entire camera/computer system, which means a very long lifespan. Ruggedized electric motors are very durable as well. I think an Aptera will be a car that will remain in service for a good long time.

Ooh, heeey, a thought... speaking of fiberglass, does anyone here know why it was invented? It was made to replace plywood for shielding radar antennae, since it's transparent to microwaves, to radar. You know, radar -- like police speed detectors use? :) Sure, there's still metal structural elements, but I'd imagine your radar cross section in an Aptera is way lower. Let me check out this theory and look up fiberglass planes vs. radar... heh, yep, the theory pans out:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/22/eveningnews/main325220.shtml

----------
" The Velocity airplane is visible to the eye, but to America's best radar system it is virtually invisible. And that, says U.S. law enforcement, makes the near stealth Velocity a tool for smugglers.

Joe Bendig, the director of U.S. Customs' state of the art radar center says the system has a problem finding small fiberglass aircraft like the Velocity.

"The radar pretty much gets absorbed by the skin. The only thing we really pick up is the engine, which is metal," he said"
------

(More accurately, the skin isn't absorbing the radar; it's just letting it pass through.) Found a number of pages talking about the same sort of problem with sporty cars that use fiberglass to reduce weight. The big engines can give them away, but Aptera doesn't have a big engine -- just a small electric. I wonder how visible the batteries are?

Either way, it wouldn't affect LIDAR.

[onugs]

Ooh, heeey, a thought... speaking of fiberglass, does anyone here know why it was invented? It was made to replace plywood for shielding radar antennae, since it's transparent to microwaves, to radar. You know, radar -- like police speed detectors use? :) Sure, there's still metal structural elements, but I'd imagine your radar cross section in an Aptera is way lower. Let me check out this theory and look up fiberglass planes vs. radar...
LMAO!!!!!!

[SpyderMike]

My understanding is that one of the principals Steve Fambro is a composite plane guy - so am I - I couldn't help but notice some design influence from the Cirrus (www.cirrusdesign.com). They only built white planes with graphic stickers and had a operating manual limiting the color to white only (until recently). They have since added a few metallics that I suppose were tested to meet requirements for longevity of the composites material.

By the way, most production certified composite planes have metal mesh or foil imbedded in them for lightening protection - this make them reflect on radar. The Velocity is an Experimental Certified aircraft and doesn't fall under the same design guidelines (much looser).

Mike

[BryanSR]

At the very least, they're encouraging white for that reason. But they've also expressed a willingness to offer some degree of options on this front.

Here's a thought to try on for size. This vehicle could be in service for a *long time* (let's hope they have durable upholstery inside!). Think about it: apart from any that might exist in the motor or other specific drive components or accessories, the only steel in this vehicle is in a few main structural elements. Those being strong and internal, they should degrade pretty slowly. AFAIK, fiberglass, if kept cool, can easily last decades (I've seen fiberglass pool manufacturers even *warranty* their pools for 25 years).

Ooh, heeey, a thought... speaking of fiberglass, does anyone here know why it was invented? It was made to replace plywood for shielding radar antennae, since it's transparent to microwaves, to radar. You know, radar -- like police speed detectors use? :) Sure, there's still metal structural elements, but I'd imagine your radar cross section in an Aptera is way lower. Let me check out this theory and look up fiberglass planes vs. radar... heh, yep, the theory pans out:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/22/eveningnews/main325220.shtml

----------
" The Velocity airplane is visible to the eye, but to America's best radar system it is virtually invisible. And that, says U.S. law enforcement, makes the near stealth Velocity a tool for smugglers.

Joe Bendig, the director of U.S. Customs' state of the art radar center says the system has a problem finding small fiberglass aircraft like the Velocity.

"The radar pretty much gets absorbed by the skin. The only thing we really pick up is the engine, which is metal," he said"
------

(More accurately, the skin isn't absorbing the radar; it's just letting it pass through.) Found a number of pages talking about the same sort of problem with sporty cars that use fiberglass to reduce weight. The big engines can give them away, but Aptera doesn't have a big engine -- just a small electric. I wonder how visible the batteries are?

Either way, it wouldn't affect LIDAR.

I used to Overhaul FIBERGLASS RADOMES for the Air Force. Fiberglass MUST be COATED with a UV resistant coating to prevent UV from degrading the structure. We did our VERY BEST to make those structures VERY INVISIBLE to the Radar that penetraded them because the pilot needed to "see" where he where he was going. I did this work for 20 years before I developed Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from Sanding on those radomes for hours on end. some of those radomes had nomex honecomb in a sandwitch construction. One of the BIGGEST problems we had was WATER PENETRATION from small cracks. This water will cause a problem called delamination where the layers of the fiberglass come apart from each other.
We had aircraft radomes the flew on airplane that were 30 plus years old BUT they were overhauled regularly.
I thought these cars bodies were going to be made from carbon fiber or one of the other HIGH TECH composites?

BryanSR

[gg222]

In an artical in SFGATE http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/15/HOP1103V8S.DTL it says "An airplane-inspired car that costs $10,000 less than a basic Volvo and gets 300 miles per gallon? Not quite yet, but San Diego robot builder Steve Fambro may be onto something with the Aptera ("wingless" in Greek) vehicle, which he built out of an airplane kit (his wife thought it too dangerous to fly, so he didn't put the wings on)."

[SpyderMike]

One of the BIGGEST problems we had was WATER PENETRATION from small cracks. This water will cause a problem called delamination where the layers of the fiberglass come apart from each other.


I agree with you - UV damage and moisture could be the big issues with longevity - especially with any light surface damage (expected with a vehicle)

[LQUAN]

I thought these cars bodies were going to be made from carbon fiber or one of the other HIGH TECH composites?

BryanSR

From the Aptera Walkaround video, it looks like fiberglass with a layer of screen or lattice of carbon fiber sandwiched in between. They would probably have some critical points reinforced with all carbon fiber. All carbon fiber would not be cost effective. We would be paying a whole lot more if it is all carbon fiber. Honeycomb core material is extremely lighweight and strong but expensive. And it is prone to have delamination problem if water seeps in. Same problem with foam core.

[KarenRei]

I thought these cars bodies were going to be made from carbon fiber or one of the other HIGH TECH composites?

Early reports on the Aptera stated that it would be made of fiberglass, kevlar, and carbon fiber composites. Discussion of the appearance of the car a while back suggested that the outer shell is probably at least mostly fiberglass composites. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If I recall correctly, kevlar is about the same strength as fiberglass, just 50% lighter, while carbon fiber is about the same density as kevlar, just about 50% stronger. These aren't huge differences here. The car is still very light and should still be very strong. Also, a cross-section of a panel revealed in the most recent walkthrough video shows that while it's not honeycomb reinforcement, there is some sort of grid/diamond reinforcement for it. So this is no low-tech skin.

Update: Looks like LQUAN beat me to it on this post. :)

[KarenRei]

You'll get your chance, starting in a month or two. :)

Too bad it's such a long trip for me to get down to Carlsbad, and I'm not nearby that often. :P

[daddio]

For my experienced composite forum colleagues...
Would it be wise to protect the most vunerable parts of the :aptera: shell ? E.g. nose and wheel covers from road debrie?
I protect just the vunerable parts of my painted metal car with a 3M clear film product.

http://www.ppffilm.com/faq.html

http://xpel.com/products/configurator.asp?prevtype=1&prevyear=2006&prevmake=15&prevmodel=279&prevsubmodel=0&prevseries
0&type=1&year=2006&make=15&model=279&submodel=720 (http://xpel.com/products/configurator.asp?prevtype=1&prevyear=2006&prevmake=15&prevmodel=279&prevsubmodel=0&prevseries=0&type=1&year=2006&make=15&model=279&submodel=720)


Is this something that would have merit for the composite body too?

[evolutionmovement]

The problem I found with the 3M film is that they only sell it in specialized precut kits to installers unless you buy huge rolls. Unless this changes, it's unlikely they'd make an Aptera kit. If they do offer it, I think the extreme compound curvature of the Aptera design would make it difficult to DIY. But the stuff does work - I have it on my Mazda. The only thing about it is that you have to clean it separately from the paint or it gets kind of milky looking. I'm terrible with cleaning so mine always looks that way. But then, my car's dark blue, so on a white car, it might not be seen.

Fiberglass bodies can be made to different thicknesses and with different gelcoat thickness as well. I know Monterey boats had a huge problem with too thick a gelcoat that caused cracks almost immediately (sometimes on the introductory sea trial). GMs process for their fiberglass bodies is one of the best, while many kit cars or race cars with planned short life spans and built to minimum weight are not. If you go to car shows with 'glass bodied cars 20 years old or older, you'll usually see surface cracks in high-stress areas. I wouldn't doubt if there have been decent advancements in surface coats and resins since that time, but it's something to consider. In any event, I don't see how keeping the vehicle garaged wouldn't extend the life considerably since UV isn't very good for much of anything. I don't see them having old molds for car restorations to make new bodies for the huge variety of cars out there, so there must be a repair method for the less common stuff.

Kevlar isn't good at providing stiffness, so it doesn't work well for bodies. TVR in the 80's used Kevlar body panels and they found it impossible to keep larger panels from appearing obviously wavy. Again, perhaps there have been advancements in resins since then, but the increasing use of carbon fiber seems to point it towards being the better solution for chassis and body construction. But with the expense, I don't know how Aptera could sell a CF vehicle so cheap.

[2258]

I might have a custom cover made up to limit sun damage, the thick blue canvas type that's often used for boats. As a side benefit it might conceal the car to would be thieves. Until this type of car becomes more commonplace, theft is a big concern, but I guess that's what insurance is for.

[rotus8]

The problem I found with the 3M film is that they only sell it in specialized precut kits to installers unless you buy huge rolls. Unless this changes, it's unlikely they'd make an Aptera kit. If they do offer it, I think the extreme compound curvature of the Aptera design would make it difficult to DIY.
I have purchased reasonable quantities from secondary sellers; they buy the big rolls and slice it down. I agree that the compound curves will make the installation a challange. Probably will have to be done in pieces.

[daddio]

evolutionmovement,

Thanks for your experience. My 3M film on a dark Fuji blue Civic is holding up well. Yes the end of the film is more noticeable on a dark color.
I suppose it the Aptera take off, 3M would offer a split film to "deal with the compound curvature of the nose"???
It does seem to dissappear on white/light colored vehicles (like :aptera: )


2258,

Re stealing an :aptera: .. can you imagine that.. telling the officer "My car looks like this:aptera:" (like ever Aptera out there!) They will be pulling over every:aptera: on the road! If they thought the license plate was changed
Of course the VIN would provide a unique ID...

LoJack would be your friend!

Regards!

[evolutionmovement]

If you clean the film often enough or bother to polish it when you don't, it stays pretty clean. It just takes a little more effort than a touchless car wash, which is all I have patience for.

Cool that you can get the 3M film now! It used to be you could only get really thin stuff, but that was probably 4 years ago now that I think of it. Maybe a pattern could be made once someone has an Aptera. You'd probably want to get the film without the adhesive, then you could overlay it onto the nose and see where you'd need to fold and cut. I don't know if you can help it into place with a heat gun or not - that might make things easier.

[victoly]

By the way, they haven't used radar for speed traps for years. It's all laser now.

[2258]

There was a thread about advertising wraps on the car to help earn enough money to pay for itself (something I think i'd like to do), and It occured to me that the added benefit of this would be UV protection. So, it would be a win win situation. A friend of mine was offered free gas to have her car wrapped in the company logo where she works.

[daddio]

evolutionmovement ,

Actually the film on my civic has no adhesive. It was applied by a professional and he simply wet the (clean) car, remove the pre cut panel from a paper backing, spraying the newly exposed side of the film with a dilute Isopropyl Alcohol mist and smoothed it into place. Placing the car in the sun afterwards

2258,
I wrote about the vehicle wraps.. Yes some companies pay you $200/mo to have your car professionally wrapped with their message, and yes I suppose it could protect, but they typically wrap the entire vehicle (weight)

[evolutionmovement]

Really? I never saw them put it on. That makes sense as they told me it's removable and doesn't damage anything to be removed. I wondered how that would be with an adhesive. So maybe a pattern could just be made off it by applying it dry.

[rotus8]

Really? I never saw them put it on. That makes sense as they told me it's removable and doesn't damage anything to be removed. I wondered how that would be with an adhesive. So maybe a pattern could just be made off it by applying it dry.
Actually, it does have an adhesive which is protected by the paper backing. It is not super sticky, but the alchohol activates it, while making it kinda slippery while being applied so it can be positioned. I also helps get the bubbles out. I have found that anything but a gentle crown can be a challenge to get it to stick well around the edges.

[2258]

evolutionmovement ,

Actually the film on my civic has no adhesive. It was applied by a professional and he simply wet the (clean) car, remove the pre cut panel from a paper backing, spraying the newly exposed side of the film with a dilute Isopropyl Alcohol mist and smoothed it into place. Placing the car in the sun afterwards

2258,
I wrote about the vehicle wraps.. Yes some companies pay you $200/mo to have your car professionally wrapped with their message, and yes I suppose it could protect, but they typically wrap the entire vehicle (weight)


I seem to remember that with the right company, the monthly payment could be as high as $800, and the added weight would be negligible no? Just a few pounds?

[daddio]

rotus 8,

You may be right on the larger body panels... but if there was.. it must be minimal. The reason I say this.... the professional handled and installed those pieces. I installed my small heavy film panels that covered the headlight and they did not have any adhesive that I could see/feel?
Ciao

[LQUAN]

Victoly, you're right, all speed detectors use by the police use laser - not microwave like back in the 80's. They are pinpoint accuracy.

Regarding the 3M adhesive plastic film. They are put on by using Windex and heatgun - like a high wattage hairdryer. That's how they get the film to curve with the car's body. Some car dealerships offer to put the 3M film under the area of the mask. The film prevent the mask from rubbing on the paint. My first car, a Honda CVCC, used to have this 3M film on its entire body. It makes the car looks dull. My car was 5 years old when I got it. All of the edges of the film were lifted due to the weather. Water got under some parts and made it look terrible especially torn spots due to rock damage. I don't recommend this film anywhere other than under the mask.

[JimmyDreams]

Victoly, you're right, all speed detectors use by the police use laser - not microwave like back in the 80's. They are pinpoint accuracy.



Here in CA, the Highway Patrol still uses good old X , K or Ka band radar. They use laser, but it's rare.

JimmyD

[victoly]

Really? That's sort of surprising, except that nothing that happens in this godforsaken state really surprises me anymore. I thought everyone ditched the radar guns after the testicular cancer lawsuits.

[kdawg]

Holy Speeding Batman,
In the event that this vehicle is harder to tag with a radar gun, you have one very excited speeder (Me.. yes I am a lead foot). However, Corvettes are mostly fiberglass and they get pinned by radar all the time. Is that because of the underlying structure of the car?

Edit**** ohh never mind.. Curse you lasers!!!

[magnru]

My understanding is that one of the principals Steve Fambro is a composite plane guy -

By the way, most production certified composite planes have metal mesh or foil imbedded in them for lightening protection -

Lightening strikes on enclosed aircraft and automobiles are a common occurrance, especially in cities such as Tampa Bay or Huston where the humidity and heat rises from the heart of the city into the atmosphere- conditions that are conducive to frequent lightening strikes. When lightening strikes a vehicle traveling down the highway the conduction flows around the metal skin of the vehicle avoiding injury to the occupant. Without this protection the occupant would be toast. I am wondering if there will be protection built into the composite material of the Aptera such as a fine copper mesh. I would imagine that Steve Fambro having experience with composite aircraft that this will or has been taken into consideration especially since safety is a main concern with Aptera. magnru #2783 2H http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/lightning-strike-protection-for-composite-structures.aspx

[paddler13]

Lightening? They tend to fade?

[randyd]

I am wondering if there will be protection built into the composite material of the Aptera such as a fine copper mesh. I would imagine that Steve Fambro having experience with composite aircraft that this will or has been taken into consideration especially since safety is a main concern with Aptera. magnru #2783 2H http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/lightning-strike-protection-for-composite-structures.aspx

Thanks for the reference Mangru. I am a sailor and didn't think there was any effective Lightening Strike Protection (LSP) available for FRP structures, very commonly used to build small sailboats. I'm glad to see that Aerospace research has come up with a few commercial products.

That said, I didn't think that Automobiles were struck all that often. Airplanes, yes. Automobiles, not so much. If there are, say, 10 automobile lightening strikes per year in the US, it would cost more to protect FRP vehicles than it does to just replace the vehicles struck. Do you have a link to a (peer reviewed) study showing the frequency?

[KarenRei]

If your vehicle isn't conductive, why would you be more likely to be struck by lightning in it than, say, you are at any other point in your life?

[RainCaster]

If your vehicle was conductive, it would make a better shield than if it wasn't. That said, I think that any car I have ever owned has been significantly shorter than the street lights and traffic signs that surround me...

[magnru]

According to the National Lightning Safety Institute http://www.lightningsafety.com Florida has 90-110 thunderstorm days per year and Colorado has 65-100 days per year. NO ONE in 2008 and 2009 in the U.S. was killed inside a vehicle by lightning strike. In fact being in your vehicle is a safe place and not because it has rubber tires but due to the metal surrounding the vehicle which acts as a conductor for the electrical charge. For safety, when a storm approaches open spaces should be avoided. Without LSP lightning strike protection you are a sitting duck especially in open places. This leaves Aptera open for a lawsuit for the first person killed or injured by lightning while sitting in their Aptera. There are numerous ways to prevent this from happening http:///www.compositesworld.com/articles/lightning-strike-protection-for-composite-structures.aspx This will raise the cost of the vehicle unless Aptera has already integrated LSP technology into it's composite molding process. I don't think Aptera would release a vehicle without LSP. magnru #2783 Type 2H

[Mr Aptera]

It can't have a smaller signal bounce than a motorcycle, and I've proven that my bike can be picked up by radar. So umm... I don't have my hopes up on the Aptera being stealthy.

[basjoos]

My car has a somewhat Aptera-like shape, but with its its aero mods made of aluminum monocoque and it appears to have a very small radar silhouette on these "Your speed is __" radar units parked alongside the road. Most of them won't pick up my car until I am right on top of them and if there is any other car near me, it picks up their speed rather then mine. If I am following another car, it blanks out after the preceeding car passes but while I am still in its field of view. The big radar reflector on the front of most cars is the radiator block, which on my car is hidden under an aluminum nose with a small air inlet placed on the nose below the level of the radiator. The windshield wipers, another good radar reflector, are hidden behind a metal wind deflector.

[randyd]

If your vehicle isn't conductive, why would you be more likely to be struck by lightning in it than, say, you are at any other point in your life?

Conductivity is not binary. A person is more conductive than air. That's why people get struck at all. With as little metal as is in an Aptera, I'll bet the Aptera is still more "conductive" than air and will attract lightening strikes in a small way. An Aptera surrounded by conventional metal vehicles may not be struck, but an Aptera out on an open highway would, I believe, be at risk.

What happens to the Aptera passenger inside a struck vehicle is yet to be seen, but overall, I would rate the risk as lower than that of a motorcycle rider. ;)

According to the National Lightning Safety Institute http://www.lightningsafety.com Florida has 90-110 thunderstorm days per year and Colorado has 65-100 days per year. NO ONE in 2008 and 2009 in the U.S. was killed inside a vehicle by lightning strike.
Hmm... That's not what I asked. No fatalities could be from very few strikes or from lots of strikes but powerful protection. How many vehicles are struck by lightening per year? Then factor in how many vehicles are on the road and you will begin to get a sense of the risk. (And you will still be left with merely a statistic and very little useful information.)

This leaves Aptera open for a lawsuit for the first person killed or injured by lightning while sitting in their Aptera.
Now hold on there... The Aptera is a motorcycle with a very different reasonable expectation of safety, including lightening protection. I doubt any lightening strike lawsuits would be filed in the first place, and I really don't expect any juries to rule for the plaintiff in such cases.

While I may disagree with your conclusions, thanks for bringing this topic up. I hope Aptera is "listening in" and has given this question due consideration.

[magnru]

Conductivity is not binary. A person is more conductive than air. That's why people get struck at all. With as little metal as is in an Aptera, I'll bet the Aptera is still more "conductive" than air and will attract lightening strikes in a small way. An Aptera surrounded by conventional metal vehicles may not be struck, but an Aptera out on an open highway would, I believe, be at risk.

I would rate the risk as lower than that of a motorcycle rider. - I agree motorcycles are composed of metal which is an attractant for lightening. Usually the tallest structure is struck such as a building or tree.


Hmm... That's not what I asked. No fatalities could be from very few strikes or from lots of strikes but powerful protection. How many vehicles are struck by lightening per year? I e-mailed the National Lightening Safety Institute asking just that question but haven't heard from them yet. Somewhere on their site I read that 40% of all vehicle strikes are not reported but I could not find any other statistics on this issue. What is clear is that few if any people have been killed while sitting in their vehicle no matter how many vehicles were hit.


Now hold on there... The Aptera is a motorcycle with a very different reasonable expectation of safety, I differ here -Aptera goes out of it's way to meet auto safety requirements. I doubt any lightening strike lawsuits would be filed in the first place, and I really don't expect any juries to rule for the plaintiff in such cases. This is yet to be seen If Aptera practices what it preaches 'SAFETY' it will integrate LSP into it's molding process. I doubt it would raise the cost significantly as there are many companies that manufacture LSP materials.

While I may disagree with your conclusions, thanks for bringing this topic up. I hope Aptera is "listening in" and has given this question due consideration. And thank you for your interest -I also hope that Aptera is listening in.

[jstdadd]

Really? That's sort of surprising, except that nothing that happens in this godforsaken state really surprises me anymore. I thought everyone ditched the radar guns after the testicular cancer lawsuits.

The radar police stopped parking the radar gun between their legs while it was on. Now that's a good example for all of us to follow!:tongue0015:

[Alan S]

An Aptera surrounded by conventional metal vehicles may not be struck, but an Aptera out on an open highway would, I believe, be at risk.

What happens to the Aptera passenger inside a struck vehicle is yet to be seen, ...

...but on a positive note, the batteries would get a quick recharge out of it.

[Ardie3301]

Its been a while since I looked into radar guns, but they still can only track one vehicle at a time.
If there is more than one target, it locks on to the biggest signal return. Driving an 18-wheeler usually means you are guaranteed to be "it." Riding a motorcycle usually meant that even the Miata got the ticket.

But this is without the popular countermeasures.
The simplest countermeasure is to drive slower. (Hah! like *that* will happen.)
The next one is to buy a radar detector, which senses the presence of radar signals, prompting you to take appropriate (if not evasive) action.
The next escalative step up would be to build or obtain a radar jammer, er, I mean, "radar gun calibrator," a device that transmits a radar signal at a specific frequency to, um, calibrate other radar guns. The frequency just happens to match either 25, 35, or 60 mph, depending on your setting. (So you zoom by the cop doing 105+ and their radar gun reads ... 60.) And don't ask me where to get one.

Stealth technology kind of sidesteps all this by simply using materials and shapes to minimize the amount of radar signal that will return to the sender to be detected at all, much less calculated into a speed readout.
Fiberglass is more or less radar-transparent, and not radar-absorbing. That means that the metal behind it, such as the Corvette's engine, is -very- visible to radar (much to the dismay of speedy Corvette drivers everywhere).

Aptera's 2e uses composites as its main body structure, which has yet to be determined if it is actually a stealthy material or not. Probably not. That radar-absorbing stuff is *not* cheap. The metal firewall, suspension components, roll bar, the wheels, and other odds and ends, are quite probably very radar-reflective. And as for the shape, the 2e's body is not stealthy. For a truly stealthy shape, the 2e's nose would not be more chisel-shaped to deflect radar away from the sending unit. (Yeah, I know, the current generation of stealth aircraft don't need to be so angular, but the cost of that radar-absorbing stuff along with their nifty electronics -- and the term "economy" -- shall never meet.)

Many police departments, in the never-ending quest for the perfect ticket, have moved away from radar and gone to lidar, or laser speed guns. I would like to see how a 10,000 watt window defroster works on the red shift of those gizmos, but not first-hand. In any case, lightwave speed guns are more problematic to spoof.

-- Ardie
(At least I am "no longer" known by my first name by the folks at the county courthouse.)

[magnru]

I wrote the NLSI telling them I plan on purchasing a composite vehicle and am inquiring if there are statistics on lightening strikes involving vehicles and if there are such statistics to reference me to them. I mentioned that composite aircraft have LSP (lightening strike protection) and I would like to see this on the Aptera. I just received a response from Richard Kithil from the NLSI "We know of no statistics. The probability of strikes to autos in general is lower than low. Take lightening off your list of concerns." I guess we should all use common sense and not be driving around during thunderstorms anyway. magnru 'TYPE 2H' #2783

[Rat]

Yes, lidar is the predominant technology used now by police, at least in the Bay Area. Maybe more rural departments can't afford it yet, but the days of beating radar guns are just about over - thank goodness.

[randyd]

I just received a response from Richard Kithil from the NLSI "We know of no statistics. The probability of strikes to autos in general is lower than low. Take lightening off your list of concerns." I guess we should all use common sense and not be driving around during thunderstorms anyway.

Thanks for doing the digging. Now we can all take lightening off of our list of concerns. :happy0005:

[JimmyDreams]

Yes, lidar is the predominant technology used now by police, at least in the Bay Area. Maybe more rural departments can't afford it yet, but the days of beating radar guns are just about over - thank goodness.

Usually, the police bounce the laser off of the front license plate. Something the Aptera doesn't have. Laser needs a good reflective surface. The front of the Aptera looks like it would bounce the laser in all directions EXCEPT back at the laser gun.

[jstdadd]

Usually, the police bounce the laser off of the front license plate. Something the Aptera doesn't have. Laser needs a good reflective surface. The front of the Aptera looks like it would bounce the laser in all directions EXCEPT back at the laser gun.

...Jimmy knows his stuff...

[KarenRei]

I think we can all agree that you won't be invisible, but you'll be harder to get a good bead on, no matter what tech is used.

[Anthony]

Don't forget the "Gawk" factor. That's when the policeman stands in shock and awe for about 3 seconds before he remembers to take the reading. Plenty of time to do some major regenning.

[OC-LA driver]

Paint it flat (non-glossy) black, and use sandpaper or pumice to roughen up the headlight covers and windows. That should help absorb or deflect lidar.

Of course other vehicles won't see you very well, and you won't be able to see too well either!

[Rat]

Anything that catches the eye of the officer is more likely to get you pulled over and ticketed and the Aptera definitely will catch the eye, especially if it's being driven in the HOV lane by a single driver. My wife used to get pulled over pretty regularly about 40 years ago when she was driving a bright red MG, had luxuriously flowing long brown hair, and was more babe-like than now (that is, even more babe-like than you are now, dear, in case you're reading this). That's even though she has always driven even more like a little old lady than I do. She drives 2MPH under the limit; I drive 2 MPH over the limit. She still drives a relatively sporty bright red car (Stanford grad; Acura TSX) and still has the luxuriously flowing long brown hair, but she doesn't get pulled over any more. I respectfully disagree with those who say you will be less likely to be ticketed in the 2e.

[jstdadd]

Anything that catches the eye of the officer is more likely to get you pulled over and ticketed and the Aptera definitely will catch the eye, especially if it's being driven in the HOV lane by a single driver. My wife used to get pulled over pretty regularly about 40 years ago when she was driving a bright red MG, had luxuriously flowing long brown hair, and was more babe-like than now (that is, even more babe-like than you are now, dear, in case you're reading this)...

Dude, you are seriously living on the wild side. "...was more babe-like than now..." I mean, really?

Back 30 years ago (TV was black and white, etched on a stone tablet) I used to get pulled over once a year or so in New Mexico on a stretch of flat road between the Organ Mountains pass and White Sands monument by a female State Patrolman (patrol-person?) I would smile, tell her the truth "my van only can do about 85, so I think I was probably at 80"... and a smile and she let me go each time. I think that a) a wedding ring, or b) an out-of-state driver's license would have earned me a ticket. She never tried to catch the Harley (not that it was any faster), but I always waved.

[OC-LA driver]

I used to get pulled over regularly when driving in the HOV lane with my young baby daughter in the car seat that was built into the rear seat center armrest. She was so low, officers thought I was alone in the car. I finally learned to have her wave her stuffed Barney doll in the air whenever an officer got behind me. They'd always laugh and smile.

Makes me want to build a remote control baby arm with stuffed animal and sell it on Ebay as an HOV access spoofer....not