Nissan leaf - Does their pricing kill the Aptera?

[VoltGuy]

Been following the Aptera for years, but so far its just been a classic MBA case study in how not to run a company.

Nissan just announced their US pricing for the Leaf BEV with 100 mile range, which will start selling in December of this year. Price includes battery. Add another $2200 for them to install a 240V quick charger in your home.

1. $32,780 before tax credits
2. $25, 280 after federal tax credit
3. $20, 280 after CA state credit

So, 100 mile range, $20k, 5 seater, 4 wheels, from a large multinational car company, in December. Or a 2e for ballpark $25k and 120 miles, 2 seater, 3 wheels from a company that has so far proven that it does not know how to run a car company, sometime in 2011/2012?

Frankly i think Nissan just put all the nails in the Aptera coffin in one press release....

Comments?

[aptera1213]

Yes....and No. :)

If Aptera planned to, and needs to, sell 20,000 cars a year, then yes Nissan Killed Aptera today. Killed them dead.

If Aptera planned to sell 3,000 cars a year to a niche market that like unique shaped cars and super aerodynamics and such, then no, Nissan did not kill Aptera.

If Aptera planned to be niche, they will be fine. If Aptera planned to be a major market seller, they are toast.

Gavin

[VoltGuy]

I understand the niche market slant on things - but still, buyers need to answer the following questions when making a purchase decision:
1. Do i have any concerns of reselling the car and getting any money back? Far fewer people will be interested in buying an Aptera vs a leaf on the used car market.
2. Do i have any concerns that Aptera will not be around 6 months to 2 years after i buy my car?
3. Do i want to carry more than 2 people, ever?
4. Do i want to be able to take the car for service quickly and easily - i.e. at any Nissan dealer vs zero/very few Aptera dealers.
5. How important is it to me to have a funky looking car vs one that is more usable, serviceable, resell-able - given price and range is basically the same.

In the end, even for an avid greenie or get-off-foreign-oil motivated buyer, $20k+ is alot of money and hard questions are going to be asked during the purchase decision.

I'm going to be very interested in following discussions here and at GM-Volt.com over the next few months as Aptera, Volt and Leaf jostle for mind share and eventually start to sell. Its shaping up to be the start of a very interesting time in the the automotive space.

[aptera1213]

Its shaping up to be the start of a very interesting time in the the automotive space.


I agree :)

I already hear the GM people saying that EVs are not a mainstream alternative at my Mac forum.

Expect the anti-EV FUD to grow louder and louder.

But really an EV is a GREAT city car. Every city person should have one.

Gavin

[Matthijs]

It seems they got the lease rate really low. They captured the tax credit in the lease. That is pretty amazing. This is going to be a game changer.

Edit: The price even without rebates is amazing! There will be a good export market to Europe for sure!

Edit2: Is the US pricing including the batterypack? If this is the case they are going to kill the competition......no they are going to...help me find stronger words here...this is amazing! I am pretty stunned. If the battery is not included well still good but not as stunning.

Edit3: I missed the other thread....just stunned...

[c623700]

Have to agree with VoltGuy, Aptera is all but dead.
As much as I like the Aptera and would be willing to wait another year for it, it is not going to happens, they missed the boat, they should have been on the market when they said they would.

[aptera1213]

Matthijs...price includes battery...and Nissan says they will still make a profit off these "cars".

They did very well. Very very well. Heck, I wasn't really even thinking of getting a LEAF and now I will be putting down a deposit on 4/20.

I must be high.... ;)

Gavin

[Matthijs]

This is automotive history in the making. Nissan pulled it off.....

[byplug]

LEAF deposit - Aptera made in China?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHANGHAI -- U.S. electric vehicle maker Aptera Motors is now in China looking for production partners, in order to significantly reduce costs and speed up volume production for markets in North America and China. In 2011, Aptera Motors of San Diego, California, will launch the Aptera 2e[pictured]; a two-door, three-wheel vehicle. "We would build vehicles here and send them back to the U.S.," says Paul Wilbur, president and CEO of Aptera Motors. --Published:2010/3/31

---------------------------------------------------------
...putting a deposit down on LEAF as well..... we will see...

[KarenRei]

This is automotive history in the making. Nissan pulled it off.....

Agreed. While I can only but wonder how much of a subsidy they're using to price it like that (at the very least, there can't be much if any profit).... price-competitive with a Prius on a first-gen li-ion EV? Amazing.

Nissan is going all-in.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Agreed. While I can only but wonder how much of a subsidy they're using to price it like that (at the very least, there can't be much if any profit).... price-competitive with a Prius on a first-gen li-ion EV? Amazing.

Nissan is going all-in.

With 1/30 the number of moving parts of an ICE car, I'm left to wonder if this has the potential to be their most profitable venture.

[SEGsby]

Not in terms of selling spare parts for their cars, which can be a significant revenue stream for most ICE car makers.

[KarenRei]

With 1/30 the number of moving parts of an ICE car, I'm left to wonder if this has the potential to be their most profitable venture.

All EV components are really expensive right now (the pack famously so). But Nissan is certainly working to bring them up to volume quickly! :)

[aptera1213]

Nissan owning the battery manufacturing will really help them in costs.

That is one reason why Th!nk also might be able to cut costs...Enerdel, as part owner of Th!nk, might be giving them a great price on the battery.

Gavin

[c0mp13x]

Wow, incredible pricing. Near $20k in Cali? Hard to resist that deal.

Nissan has just kicked every other EV's arse...

If Karen had just not made that catfish photoshop, I'd be sold... ha

http://blogs.metropulse.com/the_daily_pulse/assets_c/2010/01/Nissan_Leaf_ev-thumb-500x468-12492.jpg

:thumbsup:

[evdriver]

Yes, Nissan's play to capture the "mainstream" EV market with the Leaf looks formidable and is a huge liability for Aptera. Aptera made more sense when there were no other alternatives. Every new EV or PHEV introduction in the market marginalizes Aptera.

A few details about the Leaf: It will have an onboard 110v charger so if you only drive 20-50 miles each day you don't need to purchase the $2,200 high-voltage charger. You will be able to just plug into any outlet with an extension cord. I do this every day with my PHEV and it works great. The down side to 110 charging is that is will take 16 hours to recharge the Leaf battery from empty. However, if you drive under 50 miles a day, you can get to full in 8 hours.

My sources say the leaf will have a real world range of 80 miles, not 100. Range is dependent on speed. When someone says the range is 100 miles you have to identify what speed their test was taken at. Was it all at 35 MPH?

One more small detail. The Feds will give a $1,100 rebate on the Leaf high-voltage charger, so that cuts the cost of the unit in half.

One very nice feature on the Leaf is the ability to tell the car to start charging at a particular time of day. This allows you to take advantage of off-peak electricity rates once you get your E-9 time-of-use meter from PGE (available to registered owners of electric vehicles).

[lapwing]

Agreed. While I can only but wonder how much of a subsidy they're using to price it like that (at the very least, there can't be much if any profit).... price-competitive with a Prius on a first-gen li-ion EV? Amazing.

Nissan is going all-in.

And that is what is required to make it happen. A major car maker going all out to bring an all electric vehicle to us! I hope it's successful. My next vehicle will be a BEV. My Prius is the long-range vehicle. I need 100 miles range to be comfortable in an EV, but I can adapt to less.

Wilbur et al have screwed the pooch. I'm still a little misty eyed, but Nissan is cheering me up.

No way I would choose Aptera over the Nissan Leaf any longer.

Zoom-Zoom!

[palmer_md]

Zoom-Zoom!

You've watched too many Mazda ads.

[jhm614]

If Karen had just not made that catfish photoshop, I'd be sold... ha

:thumbsup:

Embrace you inner catfish!

[leozheng]

No, Leaf didn't kill Aptera. Stupid Paul Wilbur and the team did when they failed to launch the product a year ago as planned. Back then they would have a pretty decent niche market when they would be the only one afforadable EV model.
I was on their wait list for 2 years and now all I want is to get my $500 back and preorder a Leaf.

[Aptera#1434]

I'm going to plunk-down my $99.00 for a Leaf reservation and test drive the car. If it drives well, I'll probably buy it and pass on my Aptera reservation.

I saw it in person at "Santana Row" in San Jose early this year and was really impressed!

[SlowSRT4]

Nobody's curious about the Focus EV?

I personally wouldn't just buy the first major EV without considering the competition. Especially since Ford has been on a roll lately.

Of course I'm holding out for the Fiat 500 EV because I'm not looking for a big EV that takes longer to charge, takes up more parking space, and gets poorer "fuel" economy. Not to mention a huge hit when it comes time to replace the battery pack.

I'd personally wait until at least next year when the Focus EV comes out (and maybe even Aptera). Buying a car is a big investment, not to be taken lightly. :)

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm going to plunk-down my $99.00 for a Leaf reservation and test drive the car. If it drives well, I'll probably buy it and pass on my Aptera reservation.

I saw it in person at "Santana Row" in San Jose early this year and was really impressed!

We've been told that the Leaf will be 25k or lease for 349 a month. I've never been a fan of leases but it seems to make a lot of sense in this situation. Here are the possbilities I see at the end of three years:

1) The car is the most wonderful thing and I buy out the lease (has anyone seen a buyout figure? that could affect my strategy)
2) The car has been a total nightmare, and I'm glad to give it back and be done with it, thankful to not take a bath on something nobody else wants either
3) The car has been good, but like computers and flat screen tvs the technology has advanced to the point where there are much better options

What am I missing?

[Aptera#1434]

........I'd personally wait until at least next year when the Focus EV comes out (and maybe even Aptera). Buying a car is a big investment, not to be taken lightly. :)[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally agree with the above statement. If I end up buying a Leaf, I will have researched it to death and know more about it than any salesman at the dealership.

However, I'll need to convince my wife that we need an EV :biggrin:
She was on board with the Aptera originally, but with all the shenanigans done by Paul and company, we are both left dismayed.

[DonC]

Nissan has definitely changed the EV game with its pricing announcement. No doubt about that. But lack of funding, not the Nissan Leaf, killed Aptera.

FWIW I don't think very many Leaf buyers will be able to claim the CA tax rebate. The pool of dollars is too limited. $3.7M for commercial and personal? It makes for a good press release but it's like the ads for that special low low price -- limited to the first five shoppers.

[Matthijs]

I would jump at the chance to get the Leaf as soon as possible. The incentives will be getting less over time. And it will be a while before the other car companies will be able to touch Nissan on the price of the vehicle.

Once cumulative sales of qualified vehicles reach 200,000 vehicles. The phase-out period begins two calendar quarters after the first date in which a manufacturer's sales reach the cumulative sales maximum after December 31, 2009. The credit is reduced to 50 percent of the total value for the first two calendar quarters of the phase-out period and then to 25 percent for the third and forth calendar quarters before being phased out entirely thereafter.
What I really like about the Leaf is the display with threes. Over the lifetime of the vehicle you can "Grow" trees. The more trees you have in the display the more conservative your driving has been. So when you will sell your Leaf people can see you did not do any track days with it. And when you get a second hand Leaf you can skip the ones with only 1 tree on the dashboard. :happy0005:

[SlowSRT4]

That's just a gimmick. Driving an EV doesn't help the environment, not driving a car at all would be better. But in this case the more you drive, the more trees you get, which doesn't make any sense.

And why wouldn't you want the one with one tree? I'd take a car with 5k miles on it over one with 100k miles (efficient or not, it still wears on the car). But that's just me.

[evmavin]

I would jump at the chance to get the Leaf as soon as possible. The incentives will be getting less over time. And it will be a while before the other car companies will be able to touch Nissan on the price of the vehicle.


What I really like about the Leaf is the display with threes. Over the lifetime of the vehicle you can "Grow" trees. The more trees you have in the display the more conservative your driving has been. So when you will sell your Leaf people can see you did not do any track days with it. And when you get a second hand Leaf you can skip the ones with only 1 tree on the dashboard. :happy0005:


I read that driving it hard grows weeds on the dash.

[SlowSRT4]

I read that driving it hard grows weeds on the dash.
There's no way that can make production, is there?

I understand the Prius and Volt having efficiency meters, so you know how efficiently you are driving, that makes sense to me.

But filling your background with weeds that stay there? That seems ridiculous. That would cause people to accelerate very slowly from every stop, and maybe drive too slow on the highway. They would be scared to even use the full potential of their car for fear of polluting their dashboard.

Should I punch the throttle to pass this slow truck? Nah, better just stay behind it and draft it the whole way so I don't have to spend the next 500 miles trying to clean up some pesky weeds. :fighting0001:

I know when I get an EV I am definitely going to punch it off the line more than a few times, enjoying that nice electric torque. This whole weed/tree accumulation concept just perpetuates the notion that you can't have fun in an EV, that you have to make sacrifices driving an EV, that you have to drive slow in an EV, etc. That should really help grow the EV market. :sick0026:

[eestorfan]

That's just a gimmick. Driving an EV doesn't help the environment, not driving a car at all would be better. But in this case the more you drive, the more trees you get, which doesn't make any sense.
And why wouldn't you want the one with one tree? I'd take a car with 5k miles on it over one with 100k miles (efficient or not, it still wears on the car). But that's just me.

You must be joking Slow, just like the one Evmavin pulled on you about the weeds. ;) If he wrote that on April 1, you're going to get a big APRIL FOOL's! LOL Anyway, it's already been proven that even IF you don't use pv's/solar (which I'm going to do) or other renewable energy source, plugging it in to the grid is STILL much cleaner than an ICE, and it will definitely HELP our environment! :) An added plus is NO LONGER using gasoline!

[SlowSRT4]

You must be joking Slow, just like the one Evmavin pulled on you about the weeds. ;) If he wrote that on April 1, you're going to get a big APRIL FOOL's! LOL Anyway, it's already been proven that even IF you don't use pv's/solar (which I'm going to do) or other renewable energy source, plugging it in to the grid is STILL much cleaner than an ICE, and it will definitely HELP our environment! :) An added plus is NO LONGER using gasoline!
Yes, my post is also April Fool's joke. :biggrin:

I meant that driving your car more does not help the environment. If you "grow" trees as you drive, that encourages you to drive even more to "save the rainforest", which hurts the environment.

It reminds me of an article I remember reading about how people that buy a Prius on average end up driving so much more than their previous car, that they more than offset any possible environmental advantage to driving a hybrid.

[Rembrant]

Matthijs...price includes battery...and Nissan says they will still make a profit off these "cars".

They did very well. Very very well. Heck, I wasn't really even thinking of getting a LEAF and now I will be putting down a deposit on 4/20.

I must be high.... ;)

Gavin

I found this story that says the batteries will be leased. The story is a little old but not that old.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/nov/20/batteries-not-included/

Has anybody done recent research on this issue? Have they changed plans? Can anybody link to a story that contradicts the battery lease plan?

[SlowSRT4]

I found this story that says the batteries will be leased. The story is a little old but not that old.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/nov/20/batteries-not-included/

Has anybody done recent research on this issue? Have they changed plans? Can anybody link to a story that contradicts the battery lease plan?
Nissan has announced the final pricing with batteries included in their latest press releases, $32,768 or about there.

[jhm614]

I found this story that says the batteries will be leased. The story is a little old but not that old.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/nov/20/batteries-not-included/

Has anybody done recent research on this issue? Have they changed plans? Can anybody link to a story that contradicts the battery lease plan?

Also, the FAQ on the their facebook page : http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf?v=app_10339498918&ref=ts

states that the batteries are included in the price

[NeilBlanchard]

They are selling the battery pack along with the car; or leasing the car with the battery pack. The battery will be warrantied for 10 years, if I am not mistaken.

[SlowSRT4]

They are selling the battery pack along with the car; or leasing the car with the battery pack. The battery will be warrantied for 10 years, if I am not mistaken.
You are mistaken

"The details of the warranty are not yet determined"

[NeilBlanchard]

Well, that is what Mark Perry told me when I was at the tour when it was in Boston. I could be wrong, but that is what I remember...that it would be 70-80% of capacity in 10 years; even with a lot of fast charges.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Well, that is what Mark Perry told me when I was at the tour when it was in Boston. I could be wrong, but that is what I remember...that it would be 70-80% of capacity in 10 years; even with a lot of fast charges.

10 years? Interesting. Three bits of info I'm very interested in hearing from Nissan:

1) What are the warranty terms for the battery?
2) What is the cost to replace the battery?
3) What is the price to buy out the lease at the end of three years?

[SlowSRT4]

I am guessing that both Chevy and Nissan will try to withhold information about the weight of their vehicles and the cost to replace the battery pack as long as they possibly can.

I think this is probably less of an issue for the Volt since it has only a 16 kwh pack and due to also being a hybrid it can probably continue to drive even when the battery's life keeps decreasing even below 50% maybe if the owner doesn't care to replace it.

But I'm surprised more people aren't concerned about this. The initial price is one thing, but the price for a battery replacement after 100k is a huge factor.

[KarenRei]

At the same time, 100k is a lot of miles. I.e., a long time to hit that mark, i.e., pack prices will be lower.

We've watched the same thing happen with conventional hybrid battery packs. The same fear existed with them. Now getting a hybrid battery pack replaced is not much more than getting a transmission replaced. And hey, EVs only have a fixed gear transmission...

[aptera1213]

By the time I put 100k on any electric car (5 thousand miles a year probably for me...so 20 years?? Lets be more practical...10k a year...so 10 years)...well the price for replacement should be quite low.

Let's say 10 years...some might do it in 5, but really most will not be going 20k a year in an electric car. If you put that many miles on a car you are going to likely still get a gas or diesel or hybrid for the next few years.

So keeping it to 10 years...At that time I should be able to replace a 20kWh battery for a couple of thousand...or I can move up and probably get a 60kWh battery for what the 20kWh batteries go for today and triple my range.

And if I can sell the old batteries to the Electric company or back to the car company or to solar home owners on craiglist, well that cuts the cost even more.

Or one can lease a LEAF for three years and never think about the battery again...other than to charge it each night.

While I think it is an issue to be discussed and explored, I don't see it as a huge issue. 100k miles in the future is quite a ways away, especially for cars we do not have yet, and for batteries that are evolving daily.

Surely less of an issue than range anxiety, and I don't really see that as an issue either if people understand the limitations, the pros and the cons of EV living.

Gavin

[LTLFTcomposite]

By the time I put 100k on any electric car (5 thousand miles a year probably for me...so 20 years?? Lets be more practical...10k a year...so 10 years)...well the price for replacement should be quite low.

Let's say 10 years...some might do it in 5, but really most will not be going 20k a year in an electric car. If you put that many miles on a car you are going to likely still get a gas or diesel or hybrid for the next few years.

So keeping it to 10 years...At that time I should be able to replace a 20k battery for a couple of thousand...or I can move up and probably get a 60k battery for what the 20k batteries go for today and triple my range.

And if I can sell the old batteries to the Electric company or back to the car company or to solar home owners on craiglist, well that cuts the cost even more.

Or one can lease a LEAF for three years and never think about the battery again...other than to charge it each night.

While I think it is an issue to be discussed and explored, I don't see it as a huge issue. 100k miles in the future is quite a ways away, especially for cars we do not have yet, and for batteries that are evolving daily.

Surely less of an issue than range anxiety, and I don't really see that as an issue either if people understand the limitations, the pros and the cons of EV living.

Gavin

If only it were that simple. The problem we will face in 10 years is that while technology will have advanced we'll need to find a new battery for a 2011 Nissan Leaf, not just any old battery pack. There may or may not be any standardization, and we will be beholden to the price Nissan wants for a new pack.

If the battery goes in your Corolla 50 bucks at Walmart gets you back on the road. But talk to people with Priuses (Pri-eye?) and Civic hybrids. AFAIK there are no substitutes for hybrid battery packs, and when those go the mfrs collect thousands for replacements. Seems like it will just be that much worse with an EV.

On the other hand if something like the Leaf starts selling a couple hundred thousand units a year, others may get into the replacement pack business for that particular model. Standards would go a long way towards driving the replacement cost down. Proprietary standards and IP will do the opposite.

[palmer_md]

If the battery goes in your Corolla 50 bucks at Walmart gets you back on the road. But talk to people with Priuses (Pri-eye?) and Civic hybrids. AFAIK there are no substitutes for hybrid battery packs, and when those go the mfrs collect thousands for replacements. Seems like it will just be that much worse with an EV.


Well not quite true. There is a 12v battery in both the Honda and Toyota hybrid. The Walmart analogy works just the same for changing these batteries, but the "main pack" is an expensive OEM battery, but it is covered by a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty. Like Karen said, it is better in an EV, because you can think of it like a transmission in your car. It costs about the same to replace and will last about the same length of time. Hybrids have both the transmission and the battery pack, so you have more maintenance costs instead of less or equal.

[SlowSRT4]

Well not quite true. There is a 12v battery in both the Honda and Toyota hybrid. The Walmart analogy works just the same for changing these batteries, but the "main pack" is an expensive OEM battery, but it is covered by a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty. Like Karen said, it is better in an EV, because you can think of it like a transmission in your car. It costs about the same to replace and will last about the same length of time. Hybrids have both the transmission and the battery pack, so you have more maintenance costs instead of less or equal.
A transmission is maybe $2000. I doubt a proprietary 24 kwh lithium-polymer battery pack only costs $2000, especially since Sergio Marchionne of Fiat said that the battery pack (rumored to be 20-22 kwh) in the Fiat 500 EV is half the cost of the entire vehicle, which pegs it at around $16,000.

Oh, and current cars have warranties as high as 10 years, 150k miles. Chrysler even had lifetime warranties for a while. So I doubt that current transmissions regularly poop out before well over 200k miles. Dual-clutch automatic transmissions like Ford is using are supposed to be a lot more durable and do not require any fluid changes for the lifetime of the vehicle.

[palmer_md]

you wont probably have to pay that in 10 years after the warranty expires.

[SlowSRT4]

you wont probably have to pay that in 10 years after the warranty expires.
Yeah, but I don't think the price will drop to $2k in 10 years, unless some new battery chemistry is created.

Plus, as LFLFT said, the manufacturers don't have to sell them at cost even if they dropped that low. They could still sell them at $16k just to recoup some of their costs.

[KarenRei]

A transmission is maybe $2000. I doubt a proprietary 24 kwh lithium-polymer battery pack only costs $2000, especially since Sergio Marchionne of Fiat said that the battery pack (rumored to be 20-22 kwh) in the Fiat 500 EV is half the cost of the entire vehicle, which pegs it at around $16,000.

Nissan has suggested that their 24kWh pack costs about $10k. Now, that's *initial* pricing. The first gen Prius's pack initially cost $5.5k. Now it's $2.3k. And you can get used ones that are still in good working order for dirt cheap (I've seen them under $500 before).

[palmer_md]

Yeah, but I don't think the price will drop to $2k in 10 years, unless some new battery chemistry is created.

Plus, as LFLFT said, the manufacturers don't have to sell them at cost even if they dropped that low. They could still sell them at $16k just to recoup some of their costs.

they will have to compete with the market rate, or there will be companies that will sell aftermarket packs.

[SlowSRT4]

Nissan has suggested that their 24kWh pack costs about $10k. Now, that's *initial* pricing. The first gen Prius's pack initially cost $5.5k. Now it's $2.3k. And you can get used ones that are still in good working order for dirt cheap (I've seen them under $500 before).
Well the 1st gen Prius launched in 1997. So 13 years later and the price has been cut in half. I just am not as sure as some of you that lithium-polymer manufacturing could be improved to the point of reducing the pack cost from 10k to 2k in 10 years. Either way we simply don't know. You can't necessarily assume that pack prices will plummet in the coming years.

Not even sure it costs them $10k, I only found this:

"However, if Nissan has dropped the price to $500 a kilowatt hour, and rumors say the company is already close to that, the battery pack only costs about $12,000. At that price, Nissan won't be subsidizing the price of the car all that much, if at all, at the start. And of course, battery prices drop over time. Next year, some believe that standard car batteries should cost closer to $500. EnerDel CEO Charles Gassenheimer told us last week that his company can produce auto batteries now for less than $700 a kilowatt hour now."
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nissan-prices-the-leaf-32780-but-will-they-make-money/

[chijayhawker]

You can't necessarily assume that pack prices will plummet in the coming years.

By pure economies of scale you should be able to anticipate a price drop. The more they produce, the more the price should drop. Basic economics, right?

[SlowSRT4]

You can't necessarily assume that pack prices will plummet in the coming years.

By pure economies of scale you should be able to anticipate a price drop. The more they produce, the more the price should drop. Basic economics, right?
I'm quite sure they will drop, I'm not so sure they will plummet to 20% or less of their original price.

[Matthijs]

If I am not mistaken you can already buy as a consumer (less powerful) Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $343,- a kWh. Today. I have no doubt that if Nissan will keep their pack prizes high. Someone else will come in and offer a cheaper pack that is plug an play for your old leaf. Just like non oem replacement parts for your car.

[aptera1213]

Everybody has to decide what issues they will be worried about...

For me replacing the pack isn't one of them...doesn't mean it wont be for others.

Nissan is doing a lease...obviously they aren't worried too much about the pack or they wouldn't do that. And it allows for people who are worried about the pack.

For me, I will likely drive 5k a year. So I don't have to worried about it for 20 years. In twenty years there will be many worries about any car I still own, the battery will just be one of many. And at that time I probably won't be looking to replace the battery. I will be looking for a new car (or a mobility scooter more likely...sigh...age is a bitch), or a flying car. It's been promised to me since I was a kid.

Gavin

[jhm614]

Well... if I don't lease, I'll be finding out in 5 to 6 years. My plan is to buy, finance for 4 years and drive it about 20,000 miles per year. Assuming I own the leaf for 6 years, that means the pack will have 120,000 miles or 1,200 charges...

[LTLFTcomposite]

Everybody has to decide what issues they will be worried about...

For me replacing the pack isn't one of them...doesn't mean it wont be for others.

Nissan is doing a lease...obviously they aren't worried too much about the pack or they wouldn't do that. And it allows for people who are worried about the pack.

For me, I will likely drive 5k a year. So I don't have to worried about it for 20 years. In twenty years there will be many worries about any car I still own, the battery will just be one of many. And at that time I probably won't be looking to replace the battery. I will be looking for a new car (or a mobility scooter more likely...sigh...age is a bitch), or a flying car. It's been promised to me since I was a kid.

Gavin

Quite true, and I'm choosing not so much to worry about it as I am to think it through and make an informed decision. I've got this little mental graph in my head with battery warranty years on one axis and battery replacement cost on the other. Those two variables can be used to determine my "Battery Replacement Anxiety" (BRA) size. If the battery warranty is three years and replacement cost is 20k that's pretty scary.

[SEGsby]

BRA Size! Love it! :D

Just thought I'd mention that I'm seeing TV COMMERCIALS for the Leaf on MAJOR NETWORKS for this EV.

Nissan is firing on all cylinders. Awesome.

[SlowSRT4]

BRA Size! Love it! :D

Just thought I'd mention that I'm seeing TV COMMERCIALS for the Leaf on MAJOR NETWORKS for this EV.

Nissan is firing on all cylinders. Awesome.
Seems like Nissan is trying to gobble up as much market share and mind share as possible before the competition heats up. I think they realize that the competition is nipping at their heels. :biggrin:

Very sneaky of them. :wavey:

[KarenRei]

Well the 1st gen Prius launched in 1997. So 13 years later and the price has been cut in half. I just am not as sure as some of you that lithium-polymer manufacturing could be improved to the point of reducing the pack cost from 10k to 2k in 10 years.

I wouldn't say $10k to $2k. But $10k to $4 or $5k new, sure. And used, $1k or so, sure.

But do consider that the motor and inverter should last the lifetime of the vehicle. No multi-gear transmission to fail, no belts, exhaust system, engine block, or all of the other countless ICE car parts that can break, setting you back anywhere from $100 to $5k (if the whole block needs to be replaced) each. No oil changes, no transmission fluid, etc. And I haven't even mentioned the fuel price difference.

[Aptera#1434]

Is it possible to "recondition" the batteries when they become weak at 100k miles or more?

www.hybrid-battery-repair.com

This company is doing a reconditioning battery business. For $750-1000, they will repair Honda Insight, Hybrid Civic, Prius and other EV battery packs. I've read about it on www.InsightCentral.net

[LTLFTcomposite]

I wouldn't say $10k to $2k. But $10k to $4 or $5k new, sure. And used, $1k or so, sure.

But do consider that the motor and inverter should last the lifetime of the vehicle. No multi-gear transmission to fail, no belts, exhaust system, engine block, or all of the other countless ICE car parts that can break, setting you back anywhere from $100 to $5k (if the whole block needs to be replaced) each. No oil changes, no transmission fluid, etc. And I haven't even mentioned the fuel price difference.

Edmunds does those TCO (true? total? cost to own) calculations. It will be interesting to see what they come up with on the Leaf and other EVs.

I'm guessing that on average you will be "consuming" about $1000 a year worth of battery longevity. But the worst case and nominal battery outcomes are both interesting to explore.

[Dolphyn]

If I am not mistaken you can already buy as a consumer (less powerful) Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for $343,- a kWh.Yup, that's what I paid to for the batteries in my City-EL (via evcomponents.com).

[notooilateride]

As I see it Aptera has three very attractive advanmtages. 1 Its aerodynamics, 2 You may drive it in the car pool lane and 3 You can use your existing 120 or 240 outlet, no special charging unit to be installed.

[aptera1213]

LEAF has 110 and 220 charging. And can ride in car pool lane. But is clearly not as aero as the 2e.

Gavin

Though the LEAF will have the advantage of more seating, nationwide sales and service and the backing of a major car dealer...and will likely be cheaper after rebates.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Leaf has 3 modes of charging: 120v AC, 240v AC, and 440v DC.

[notooilateride]

Then what is all the chatter about the cost of installing a charging unit at your home? Aptera will qualify for rebates too. A 4th advantage is its safety superiority because of the composite material. Competition does engender better pricing but of course as manufacturers try to beat others it prompts them to go to other countries. I hope we can begin building more and better things here in the US. Whatever EV we decide on it is certainly a step in the right direction. I have an idea on how everyone at a grass roots level can participate in the PVEV revolution if you all would like to hear it maybe I will start a new thread if I can figure out how.

[aptera1213]

Aptera gets a 2500 federal rebate...LEAF and other 4 wheel EVs will get 7500 from the fed. Plus the 4 wheel EVs get better state rebates (in the states that offer them).

Aptera went 3 wheel for a variety of reasons. It helps in some, it hurts in others. Where it hurts right now is in lower rebates. That difference between 7500 and 2500 is huge, especially if Aptera ends up in the 30K plus range. If the LEAF and FIAT and others are the same price or actually lower, and then you get 5000 more in rebates (plus state rebates), well Aptera is be hurt by that for sure.

A home charging unit helps to charge the car faster, probably a bit safer, and often more intelligently. It will let you program when you charge and all that to take advantage of lower late night rates.

Recharging on 110 is slow, 220 is better, 440 is best for speed, but will long term decrease the battery life. (ex: for the LEAF they state that from a totally depleted battery to a fully charged battery it will take 16 hrs at 110/120, 8 hrs at 220/240 and 28 minutes at 440/480).

If Aptera comes out for sale it will be a nice choice...but just one of many choices. As with all big purchases you should weight the pros and cons and then get the car/vehicle that both suits your needs and pocketbook and your desires.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

You need a charging unit to schedule charges? I thought I read the Volt could schedule charges on regular 110v and it takes about 8 hours.

[Matthijs]

I also read this on the Nissan website:

Exclusive Offer

The Nissan LEAF™ is the sole vehicle available through The EV Project, led by EV infrastructure provider eTec. As part of this program, eTec will be providing free home charging stations and installation for up to 4,700 Nissan LEAF™ owners6.

[LTLFTcomposite]

You need a charging unit to schedule charges? I thought I read the Volt could schedule charges on regular 110v and it takes about 8 hours.
I heard somewhere 8 hours on 110v if you drive less than 50 miles in a day. Fully depleted is more like 16 hours on 110.

I'm thinking I'd start out with just the 110 and see how it goes.

Does anyone know there's some industry standard for the charge connector? And the Leaf will use that? So if I buy the home charger it would work for future EVs as well?

[Matthijs]

I heard somewhere 8 hours on 110v if you drive less than 50 miles in a day. Fully depleted is more like 16 hours on 110.

I'm thinking I'd start out with just the 110 and see how it goes.

Does anyone know there's some industry standard for the charge connector? And the Leaf will use that? So if I buy the home charger it would work for future EVs as well?

For the US they will go with the J1772 connector. So the Leaf (Lithium powered Environmental Affordable Family car) will have this. This is a chosen standard for the US. So I think you do not have to worry about future EV adaptability. I do not know if the level 3 plug is standard though.

[Matthijs]

This is also an interesting video. It seems the state of California is currently exploring a bit-process to convert all the existing charging points to new (J1772 complaient?) versions. This means a lot of instant points at good locations secured a long time ago.

yIkDJS3oFNo
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIkDJS3oFNo)

[SlowSRT4]

I heard somewhere 8 hours on 110v if you drive less than 50 miles in a day. Fully depleted is more like 16 hours on 110.
Fully depleted is 8 hours which is anywhere from 40 miles to 300 or more. You are only charging up 8 kwh which is why it takes so little time to charge on 110 compared to other EVs. 40 mile electric range + 260 mile gas range.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Fully depleted is 8 hours which is anywhere from 40 miles to 300 or more. You are only charging up 8 kwh which is why it takes so little time to charge on 110 compared to other EVs. 40 mile electric range + 260 mile gas range.

My bad. I thought he was talking about the Leaf.

[danieloneil01]

Aptera killed Aptera. No pricing killed them.

[NeilBlanchard]

I agree with you Daniel, that Aptera has done all the damage to itself, but one can still hope that something good comes from the idea that Aptera is based on.

[eestorfan]

Been following the Aptera for years, but so far its just been a classic MBA case study in how not to run a company.

Nissan just announced their US pricing for the Leaf BEV with 100 mile range, which will start selling in December of this year. Price includes battery. Add another $2200 for them to install a 240V quick charger in your home.

1. $32,780 before tax credits
2. $25, 280 after federal tax credit
3. $20, 280 after CA state credit

So, 100 mile range, $20k, 5 seater, 4 wheels, from a large multinational car company, in December. Or a 2e for ballpark $25k and 120 miles, 2 seater, 3 wheels from a company that has so far proven that it does not know how to run a car company, sometime in 2011/2012?

Frankly i think Nissan just put all the nails in the Aptera coffin in one press release....

Comments?

Let's get a more realistic final price for the LEAF:
1. $35,500 (approx.) including tax
2. $33,900 after federal tax CREDIT...this is a tax credit, NOT a refund, so my CPA told me that for me I would be able to use only $1600 of that $7500. Everyone else may get something a little different, but if you don't have a $7500 federal tax liability, then you won't get the full credit. He did say that I could PROBABLY (he's not sure yet) use another $1600 the next year. But no one knows yet if we'll be able to extend it from one year to the next and for how long.
3. $34, 000 net cost for me, and in CA it will be much more than $20K. (No AZ state rebate yet and I believe CA's is a REBATE, not a tax credit, so you would get the whole $5000 back.) And the home charging station is FREE to the first 1000 plus or minus a few hundred people. After the initial rollout in the five states, then people will pay the $2200 for the station.

[eestorfan]

They are selling the battery pack along with the car; or leasing the car with the battery pack. The battery will be warrantied for 10 years, if I am not mistaken.

Actually, the battery pack will be WARRANTED for FIVE years, but they said it SHOULD last ten years. I've got news for them: here in AZ, those batteries will be lucky to last THREE years in this kind of dry heat. My lead-acid only goes two years and a few months and that's a top-of-the-line battery. I'm hoping for an EESU before Nissan goes to production! :)

[evmavin]

Let's get a more realistic final price for the LEAF:
1. $35,500 (approx.) including tax
2. $33,900 after federal tax CREDIT...this is a tax credit, NOT a refund, so my CPA told me that for me I would be able to use only $1600 of that $7500. Everyone else may get something a little different, but if you don't have a $7500 federal tax liability, then you won't get the full credit. He did say that I could PROBABLY (he's not sure yet) use another $1600 the next year. But no one knows yet if we'll be able to extend it from one year to the next and for how long.
3. $34, 000 net cost for me, and in CA it will be much more than $20K. (No AZ state rebate yet and I believe CA's is a REBATE, not a tax credit, so you would get the whole $5000 back.) And the home charging station is FREE to the first 1000 plus or minus a few hundred people. After the initial rollout in the five states, then people will pay the $2200 for the station.


You should be able to find out regarding the rollover and your CPA should be able to get that info. The credit is far better than a deduction for those with the liability and if you have the full liability and live in CA then the cost could be about $20K. Check the IRS site for info on rolling the deduction.

[evmavin]

Actually, the battery pack will be WARRANTED for FIVE years, but they said it SHOULD last ten years. I've got news for them: here in AZ, those batteries will be lucky to last THREE years in this kind of dry heat. My lead-acid only goes two years and a few months and that's a top-of-the-line battery. I'm hoping for an EESU before Nissan goes to production! :)


That's a long wait.

[eestorfan]

I wouldn't say $10k to $2k. But $10k to $4 or $5k new, sure. And used, $1k or so, sure.

But do consider that the motor and inverter should last the lifetime of the vehicle. No multi-gear transmission to fail, no belts, exhaust system, engine block, or all of the other countless ICE car parts that can break, setting you back anywhere from $100 to $5k (if the whole block needs to be replaced) each. No oil changes, no transmission fluid, etc. And I haven't even mentioned the fuel price difference.

Karen, speaking of fuel prices...right now I'm paying $1.60/gal./gge (cng) and since my work commute of two days a week is about 70 miles round trip, I usually go about two weeks on a fill of around 12 gal./gge. So for a year, I figured I'm spending about $520/mo. just on fuel. I won't go into all the costs for maintenance on a cng vehicle, but it can be high. When I get the LEAF in December, our OFF-PEAK rate is only 5.8c. So I can charge the LEAF basically for nothing ($1.39) for a full charge, but most of the time, it will probably be about half charged. That's a huge savings over time (3-yr. lease). I'm going to sell my Honda GX to someone in Utah where the price of cng is only $ .70. So they will be able to fill up for ONLY about $12.00.

[Matthijs]

And the home charging station is FREE to the first 1000 plus or minus a few hundred people. After the initial rollout in the five states, then people will pay the $2200 for the station.

http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=49406&postcount=68 :biggrin:

[eestorfan]

LEAF has 110 and 220 charging. And can ride in car pool lane. But is clearly not as aero as the 2e.

Gavin

Though the LEAF will have the advantage of more seating, nationwide sales and service and the backing of a major car dealer...and will likely be cheaper after rebates.

It also has a 440 (fast charge) port. What rebates? LOL Maybe in CA and a few other states, but not yet here in AZ. Zero rebates at this time! And as I've said before in another reply, the $7500 federal tax credit is NOT a rebate, so unless you have a $7500 federal tax owed, you won't see much of it! For me, it would be only about $1600. It all depends on how much your federal tax liability is. I believe the $5K CA one IS a rebate, so you would get the whole thing. :)

[eestorfan]

You should be able to find out regarding the rollover and your CPA should be able to get that info. The credit is far better than a deduction for those with the liability and if you have the full liability and live in CA then the cost could be about $20K. Check the IRS site for info on rolling the deduction.

Even if you people in CA get the full $7500 which means you have to be making a lot of money to owe that much, it still going to be more than $20K. Start with $35,500 (that's based on 8% tax rate, but CA could be more.) Now deduct your $5K CA rebate and you're at $30,500. Now only IF people can use the full federal tax credit, you still have to fork over or finance 30K to start because you won't see any tax credit until you file your taxes for that year. So even when you could deduct the WHOLE credit, you're still looking at $23K, which is still much better than AZ. Every year I usually get back a thousand or so, so the $7500 tax credit isn't going to help me much.

[evmavin]

Even if you people in CA get the full $7500 which means you have to be making a lot of money to owe that much, it still going to be more than $20K. Start with $35,500 (that's based on 8% tax rate, but CA could be more.) Now deduct your $5K CA rebate and you're at $30,500. Now only IF people can use the full federal tax credit, you still have to fork over or finance 30K to start because you won't see any tax credit until you file your taxes for that year. So even when you could deduct the WHOLE credit, you're still looking at $23K, which is still much better than AZ. Every year I usually get back a thousand or so, so the $7500 tax credit isn't going to help me much.


The price I quoted was pre-tax, which is the correct basis for comparison. No surprise AZ has no credit. If you buy the car in Dec and file in Jan it's a couple months to get the benefit.

[aptera1213]

I would think most people buying a 30K car will be in a taxable income bracket that will get the full 7500 back. I know I pay much much more each year than 7500....so it will be a nice refund for me...and probably most buyers.


Either way....Aptera with a price around 30k and LEAF around 30k and Fiat around 30k (and probably Ford Focus EV around 30K) and Th!nk less that 30k etc etc...With all the cars around the same price, and will the majors having better press, more dealerships and all that, AND with most people getting a much bigger tax break--which will be played up big in the dealerships--well who do you think will make more sales? (i also think Th!nk is a bit in trouble too...but they can likely do fine as a tiny city car...and they have a back seat...which is important...2 seater cars are always a very limited market car compared to even a tiny back seat...plus it "looks" like Th!nk is already lowering the price in the US...I hope Aptera is going to do the same. They need to start with AC and other "basic" standard amenities at 25k or less.)

I'm not a poor person, but one of the major draws for me to Aptera was the price. Two years ago when Aptera jumped from out of nowhere, well nobody else was talking about a 30k (or less) electric car that was freeway capable and with 100 mile range and more than one seat. I loved the style and the importance of the Aptera...but I also loved the price and how they were so far ahead of everybody else.

Now every company is talking those numbers and some will even get to market first. Crazy.

So Aptera is no longer ahead on price (and behind if you include the tax break...and people loves them some tax breaks...most would prefer an instant rebate, and some companies might be bright enough to do that, but even so, tax breaks make the masses happy). Aptera is no longer ahead on release date. So what do they have? Aero and a unique shape. Good to have, but the others have nationwide dealerships and store fronts and history.

Can Aptera succeed? Sure. Can they compete with the big boys? Nope. But they can be a niche car company if they realize their limitations and plan for the proper number of sales and all that businessy stuff.

Gavin

[aptera1213]

ps...how do federal rebates work. my eldest kid bought a house last year and they got the 8k rebate. they got the full 8k (plus more) even though they paid less that that in taxes over the year (husband is a first year teacher, she is a student...so they made like 35k total last year...paid a couple k in federal taxes, but because of the new first time home purchase, along with getting a new furnace rebate and some other stuff, well they got 10k in refund...so obviously you can get more back from the fed than you paid with some tax rebates)

Gavin

[eestorfan]

ps...how do federal rebates work. my eldest kid bought a house last year and they got the 8k rebate. they got the full 8k (plus more) even though they paid less that that in taxes over the year (husband is a first year teacher, she is a student...so they made like 35k total last year...paid a couple k in federal taxes, but because of the new first time home purchase, along with getting a new furnace rebate and some other stuff, well they got 10k in refund...so obviously you can get more back from the fed than you paid with some tax rebates)

Gavin

Rebates/refunds are much different than tax credits. The housing and furnace one is a rebate/refund so people get all of it no matter what they owe the government. I'm semi-retired and my CPA told me that if I bought the car, (I'm going to lease.) I could only use about $1600 of the tax credit...some carry over if you can't use it all, some don't.

[evmavin]

After you do your taxes if you owe say $8000 you will only owe $500 or get a $7500 refund if you paid in $8000. Its that simple.

[Stunt Driver]

Really depends on the price of Aptera.


For me, I need a 4-5 seater to get around with family on weekends. And Leaf probably woudl be enough, BUT - it's just another standard looking car of small size and average look. At above average price, which will hardly do me any savings at the end. Plus you are still limited in range, so can't go skiing.


As for Aptera - it would become my daily-to-work commuter of fun. Nicely, unique looking car. If they do come out at $25 and tax credits still would apply - I'm bying Aptera!

ps. and as for family car - I'll get a used Escalade for under $10k and a sticker that says f fuel economy:)

[aptera1213]

I agree (though the LEAF isn't so bad...it's kinda growing on me...the interior is HOT looking).

I think Aptera can do ok if under 25k (remember the tax credit is only 2.5k for the Aptera). If you can get an Aptera for under 25k, that could sell (the LEAF is about 25k with rebate, same with the 500ev when it comes...I imagine Ford will be the same...so only the Th!nk will be below that...Aptera needs to be too. It can't be the same price or higher than the big boy cars...and the credit of 7.5 k for the full cars vs the 2.5k for the Aptera is hurting some. It means the 2e has to be much much cheaper than the LEAF or Focus EV or Fiat 500 to even compete...that is a bit of a blow that probably wasn't expected by Aptera).

If Aptera stays at 30k or more, well it can sell, but in very very small numbers. The thing is the 2e was always going to sell in smallish numbers...so plan on that and work with that understanding in mind and then move forward.

But the difference in sales if the 2e is 30k or more vs 25k or less is probably quite big (the difference between selling 5k cars a year vs selling half that amount at most). Sure Aptera will sell a good amount the first year, but after the collectors and such have grabbed one, well the mainstream will not be paying a premium for an "odd" looking car that has less space and can't take the kids to school and such.

Of course this is all just IMHO...

Gavin

[evmavin]

I agree with both of you but I would bet the Aptera starts about $29K if they are lucky.

[SlowSRT4]

I agree (though the LEAF isn't so bad...it's kinda growing on me...the interior is HOT looking).

I'm actually not a fan of the interior. To me it looks like they are
saying "here is your basic Nissan Versa interior, but we have taken some stuff from a spaceship and thrown it in there".

The high-tech-looking stuff doesn't seem to mesh well with the large flat areas, steering wheel, etc.

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/nissan-leaf_100225862_l.jpg


Here's what the Volt interior looks like. Not sure how much a fan of it I am, but at least it has cupholders.

http://acceltimes.com/images/IMAGEGALLERY/Chevrolet/Volt/Mid/2011-Chevrolet-Volt-Interior1.jpg


The interior I like better is that of the Focus. It looks more upscale and integrated, with nice stitching, more use of higher-quality materials, etc.

http://fordnewsblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/2011-ford-focus-interior.jpg

[palmer_md]

I'm actually not a fan of the interior. To me it looks like they are
saying "here is your basic Nissan Versa interior, but we have taken some stuff from a spaceship and thrown it in there".

The high-tech-looking stuff doesn't seem to mesh well with the large flat areas, steering wheel, etc.

Here's what the Volt interior looks like. Not sure how much a fan of it I am, but at least it has cupholders.

The interior I like better is that of the Focus. It looks more upscale and integrated, with nice stitching, more use of higher-quality materials, etc.



we'll it only proves beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you believe those photos get progressively better and I think they get progressively worse. I like simple better. The best interior I've seen is the Tesla S.

I can't find a good photo, but here is a poor version from gadget review

www.gadgetreview.com (http://www.gadgetreview.com/2009/03/tesla-officially-unveils-the-s-sedan-a-50k-all-electric-7-passenger-car.html/tesla-s-sedan-official-4)

http://www.gadgetreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/tesla-s-sedan-official-6.jpg

[SlowSRT4]

we'll it only proves beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you believe those photos get progressively better and I think they get progressively worse. I like simple better. The best interior I've seen is the Tesla S.

I can't find a good photo, but here is a poor version from gadget review

www.gadgetreview.com (http://www.gadgetreview.com/2009/03/tesla-officially-unveils-the-s-sedan-a-50k-all-electric-7-passenger-car.html/tesla-s-sedan-official-4)


Of course it's only my opinion, that's all I was giving.

If you like the Tesla S interior it almost seems like the Focus interior is closer to that. Notice the more premium materials in the Tesla S and the stitching. Now obviously the Focus materials are not quite as premium as that, but they are a lot closer.

To me, both the Focus and the Tesla S have good "premium" looking interiors (obviously the Tesla S moreso with that leather, or alcantara, or whatever it is), whereas the Leaf's interior looks more basic and "cheap". The materials are just lifeless, there isn't any stitching, not a nice flow to the interior, etc. Not really sure how much more I can explain it.

BTW, the interior of the Tesla S is also my favorite.

[aptera1213]

I like sparse and non cluttered. The focus is fine, but a bit busy. The volt I really don't care for.

Blank spaces should be blank spaces. We don't need tons of stuff packed in to make it look like, hey this has more stuff, it's got to be better. :)

I wouldn't mind if the LEAF mid console screen was a bit small and a bit more rounded to decrease it's "feel"... But I don't like the double hump of the aptera dash, nor the double hump of the volt dash.

Gavin
But everybody is different.

[aptera1213]

I do like the higher quality materials of the tesla...very nice...and it's true that the volt and ford materials look more solid...but I'm tried of black dashboards.

[KarenRei]

I like sparse and non cluttered. The focus is fine, but a bit busy. The volt I really don't care for. Blank spaces should be blank spaces. We don't need tons of stuff packed in to make it look like, hey this has more stuff, it's got to be better. :)

My thoughts as well.

[SlowSRT4]

I do like the higher quality materials of the tesla...very nice...and it's true that the volt and ford materials look more solid...but I'm tried of black dashboards.
All of those dashboards are grey fyi.

Also, nobody here besides me likes good stitching? Maybe I'm biased because my current car has nice black interior leather with red stitching.

[AndyH]

I'm actually not a fan of the interior. To me it looks like they are saying "here is your basic Nissan Versa interior, but we have taken some stuff from a spaceship and thrown it in there".

The high-tech-looking stuff doesn't seem to mesh well with the large flat areas, steering wheel, etc.



Thanks for the interior shots from the Volt and Focus. Double Yuck.

I've been driving European cars since about 1983. I love the simple, clean, functional designs that come from Europe. One can control the radio or adjust the AC without looking. Even with the electronics, the LEAF most closely fits the clean uncluttered paradigm.

The Ford and GM interiors look like a very cluttered SciFi B Movie spaceship wannabes. :(

[futura]

I like sparse and non cluttered. The focus is fine, but a bit busy. The volt I really don't care for.

Blank spaces should be blank spaces. We don't need tons of stuff packed in to make it look like, hey this has more stuff, it's got to be better. :)

I wouldn't mind if the LEAF mid console screen was a bit small and a bit more rounded to decrease it's "feel"... But I don't like the double hump of the aptera dash, nor the double hump of the volt dash.

Gavin
But everybody is different.
+1 Gavin. I hope the Focus EV console looks nothing like the 2011 ICE Focus. The interior should be more than just physically connected to the rest of the vehicle. An EV represents simplicity and hopefully efficiency. So, unless I'm piloting the Space Shuttle, I really don't want 20 readouts per sq-ft. The Fiat 500 does a good job of maintaining this continuity between a simple retro vehicle and it's interior. Italian car designers generally do this well though IMO.
Aptera's newest interior misses this concept by a mile. I appreciated the idea of the Jason Hill original Aptera interior. Simple, functional, airy with a touch of the whimsical from the +/- pedals... from an era of innocence.

[eestorfan]

Of course it's only my opinion, that's all I was giving.

If you like the Tesla S interior it almost seems like the Focus interior is closer to that. Notice the more premium materials in the Tesla S and the stitching. Now obviously the Focus materials are not quite as premium as that, but they are a lot closer.

To me, both the Focus and the Tesla S have good "premium" looking interiors (obviously the Tesla S moreso with that leather, or alcantara, or whatever it is), whereas the Leaf's interior looks more basic and "cheap". The materials are just lifeless, there isn't any stitching, not a nice flow to the interior, etc. Not really sure how much more I can explain it.

BTW, the interior of the Tesla S is also my favorite.

Something that you may have forgotten...the LEAF's interior is made mostly of recycled materials...that's a BIG thumbs up for me! :) That trumps the 'fancy' stuff IMO.

[SlowSRT4]

Thanks for the interior shots from the Volt and Focus. Double Yuck.

I've been driving European cars since about 1983. I love the simple, clean, functional designs that come from Europe. One can control the radio or adjust the AC without looking. Even with the electronics, the LEAF most closely fits the clean uncluttered paradigm.

The Ford and GM interiors look like a very cluttered SciFi B Movie spaceship wannabes. :(
The Leaf interior was designed by Renault? Actually the Focus is the one with the European interior, it is a European car just like the Fiesta.

Fiesta interior

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2008/10/16-ford-fiesta-design-story/Ford-Fiesta-Interior-03.jpg

I am a huge fan of European interiors which is why I like the interior of the Focus, Fiesta, Fiat 500, etc. :love0030:

[SlowSRT4]

Something that you may have forgotten...the LEAF's interior is made mostly of recycled materials...that's a BIG thumbs up for me! :) That trumps the 'fancy' stuff IMO.
Actually I don't give a crap if it is made with recycled materials or not, lol.

[AndyH]

The Leaf interior was designed by Renault?

I didn't say that. ;) But it's good to see the the designers in France are catching up with the Teutonic simplicity one can find in a VW or Audi. :D

[Spies]

I like sparse and non cluttered.
So do I. I quite liked the simple sparse interior of my Honda EV Plus when I had it. Hopefully I will be able to find a decent picture of it.

[butter]

Actually I don't give a crap if it is made with recycled materials or not, lol.

Hmmm, that's funny, because I don't give a crap about stitching. And I do care quite a bit about the use of recycled (and recyclable) materials. In fact, it was one additional thing I absolutely loved about the Aptera.

I favor substance over style, efficiency over appearance, and simplicity over... that mess in the third picture.

[evmavin]

The volt is tolerable until you reach the dash pad which looks like hell with its dual-layer design. The Ford looks like the new CRX and the dash is cluttered hideous, overdone, tacky and just plain bad. There is no way I would ever buy a car with a dash as nasty as that one, with all their advancements in design and styling that one took a big trip backward. I hope the Leaf has an interior with darker color options, that cream color would be a disaster for keeping clean.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Hmmm, that's funny, because I don't give a crap about stitching. And I do care quite a bit about the use of recycled (and recyclable) materials. In fact, it was one additional thing I absolutely loved about the Aptera.

I favor substance over style, efficiency over appearance, and simplicity over... that mess in the third picture.

Or could you make the case that by making it with top quality materials and workmanship it won't have to be recycled so soon? Besides, leather is recyclable isn't it? (Grind it up into a soil enrichment, cows eat the grass)

[SlowSRT4]

The volt is tolerable until you reach the dash pad which looks like hell with its dual-layer design. The Ford looks like the new CRX and the dash is cluttered hideous, overdone, tacky and just plain bad. There is no way I would ever buy a car with a dash as nasty as that one, with all their advancements in design and styling that one took a big trip backward. I hope the Leaf has an interior with darker color options, that cream color would be a disaster for keeping clean.

The Focus interior is high-end, luxurious, comfortable, durable, advanced, and intuitive.

The Leaf interior is ostentatious, garish (blue-tipped column stalks, really?), cheap, uncomfortable, awkward, unintuitive, impossible to keep clean, and looks like it was birthed after a Versa had sex with an iPod. I would never buy a $25,000+ car that's based on a $9,900 pos.


:happy0005:

[evmavin]

The Focus interior is high-end, luxurious, comfortable, durable, advanced, and intuitive.

The Leaf interior is ostentatious, garish (blue-tipped column stalks, really?), cheap, uncomfortable, awkward, unintuitive, impossible to keep clean, and looks like it was birthed after a Versa had sex with an iPod. I would never buy a $25,000+ car that's based on a $9,900 pos.


:happy0005:


For one, I would bet the Leaf will have options for colors. I assume you have sat in both vehicles and tested these "comfort" statements. Luxurious? A Ford focus? LOL These are not luxury cars. The dash makes the CRX look nice. Advanced? Looks like a basic over-designed dash to me with far to much going on. Where did you test the comfort? I was not aware there were test drives yet.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Thinking back to those weekly checks of the Aptera web site looking for some news and never seeing anything change. I can't keep up with the Leaf site, they said on facebook they are taking it down tonight for more updates.

[aptera1213]

The US version isn't as light...it is grey...

Gavin

[aptera1213]

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-news/nissan-leaf-world-tour-comes-to-la-ghosn-preaches-ev-gospel/27153445+w750/nissan-leaf-interior.jpg

Hoping it gets a shade or two darker...

[SlowSRT4]

Hoping it gets a shade or two darker...
Actually that's the same color, cream or somesuch. The only reason it looks different is because one is real-life and the other is a render/press-shot. All three shots I posted originally were the same thing (render/press-shots).

Here are real-life for comparison:

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/chevy-volt-interior-1.jpg

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/4/203/4522/38007260749_large.jpg

[aptera1213]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4543220501_443577abe4_o.jpg

Looks good to me...a bit darker would be ok...i like a "putty" color.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4543220501_443577abe4_o.jpg

Looks good to me...a bit darker would be ok...i like a "putty" color.

Gavin
That one is another render, not really a good idea to judge color based on render unfortunately. :animal0017:

[aptera1213]

yeah...plus who knows how it will really look come dec.

we play a constant waiting game here in the EV world.

Gavin

[evnow]

I remember the interior as almost whitish. I guess we will know better when they go on another tour with test driving ...

[Matthijs]

I remember the interior as almost whitish. I guess we will know better when they go on another tour with test driving ...

I saw a video of the tour where at the end a Nissan employee used a steering wheel cover to protect that pretty white steering wheel from getting dirty.

[evnow]

I saw a video of the tour where at the end a Nissan employee used a steering wheel cover to protect that pretty white steering wheel from getting dirty.

I beleive the white leather interior is just for auto shows. In the next round of Leaf tour we will get to see the model we are really reserving ... hopefully.

[earther]

I beleive the white leather interior is just for auto shows...

ugh, I hope Nissan offers a nonleather option for customers.
the added cost of having to re-upholster into cloth might be a deal-breaker for me.

[AndyH]

yeah...plus who knows how it will really look come dec.

we play a constant waiting game here in the EV world.

Gavin


Here's a thread that shows still-photos and video (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11892&start=0)from the NY part of the Leaf cross-country tour. Look for username 'Toshi' - he attended the event.

Here's a post with excellent still-shots of the interior (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11892&start=15#p238131). More 'putty' or 'tan' - not the 'keep bleach close by' cream color in other pictures. ;)

There do appear to be a couple of different 'demo' or 'display' Leafs around - with different shades of blue outside and possibly different shades of interior.

No need for the EV world to wait - there are too many of us. :D

[KarenRei]

ugh, I hope Nissan offers a nonleather option for customers.
the added cost of having to re-upholster into cloth might be a deal-breaker for me.

Ugh. I'm not sure I could bring myself to buy it if it was leather. I'd probably have to wait for the next EV to come out. How many cows would it take to outfit an entire car? How much chromium, cyanide, and other nasty stuff is leached into that from the tanning process? Uck. :P

[SlowSRT4]

Here's a post with excellent still-shots of the interior (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11892&start=15#p238131). More 'putty' or 'tan' - not the 'keep bleach close by' cream color in other pictures. ;)
That still looks like cream to me. :sad0126:

Ugh. I'm not sure I could bring myself to buy it if it was leather. I'd probably have to wait for the next EV to come out. How many cows would it take to outfit an entire car? How much chromium and other nasty stuff is leached into that from the tanning process? Uck. :P
I'm fine with leather, I really can't afford Alcantara just to please a few silly moo-moo's.

[eestorfan]

Ugh. I'm not sure I could bring myself to buy it if it was leather. I'd probably have to wait for the next EV to come out. How many cows would it take to outfit an entire car? How much chromium, cyanide, and other nasty stuff is leached into that from the tanning process? Uck. :P

I'm with you Karen! I love the idea that Nissan is using recyclable material for the seats. I've never heard that leather would be an option, but I hope it is JUST and option if it is offered.

[aptera1213]

I will assume since Nissan is going for the green crowd with the LEAF, that there will be a cloth seat version. Leather is usually an option as it is more expensive.

Final colors and such are not set yet.

Gavin

[SEGsby]

Hmmm, should my Electric Car's interior be wrapped in DEAD ANIMAL SKINS? Hmmm. ;)

If Leather Seats become an option for the Aptera, I'm going to be angry.

[SlowSRT4]

Hmmm, should my Electric Car's interior be wrapped in DEAD ANIMAL SKINS? Hmmm. ;)

If Leather Seats become an option for the Aptera, I'm going to be angry.
What is seriously the matter with you people? There is nothing wrong with leather... you can always breed more cows, I mean honestly...

[evnow]

What is seriously the matter with you people? There is nothing wrong with leather... you can always breed more cows, I mean honestly...

Change cow to some other animal - like cat - and try the question again.

[evnow]

Ugh. I'm not sure I could bring myself to buy it if it was leather. I'd probably have to wait for the next EV to come out. How many cows would it take to outfit an entire car? How much chromium, cyanide, and other nasty stuff is leached into that from the tanning process? Uck. :P

Carbon footprint would definitely increase with leather. Commercial animal farming is abnoxios.

[SlowSRT4]

Change cow to some other animal - like cat - and try the question again.
So are you a vegetarian or what? Even if you eat plants you are still killing and eating living things...

[KarenRei]

What is seriously the matter with you people? There is nothing wrong with leather... you can always breed more cows, I mean honestly...

Let's ignore the fact that some people have a moral issue with meat. Raising cattle is incredibly environmentally destructive. Three quarters of the world's non-ice-covered land surface is dedicated, directly or indirectly, to raising livestock. They consume about 8 times as many calories as you get out in beef. Your average beef cow emits about 200 pounds of methane over its short lifespan, about 2 1/2 tons CO2 equivalent -- the CO2 emitted by 3 1/2 megawatt hours of coal power. The process of turning hides into leather is just plain awful. Ever looked at the sort of chemicals they use to do it? It's a smorgasboard of nasty toxic persistent stuff. These days they generally outsource most of it to the third world because most processes wouldn't pass US environmental standards without prohibitively expensive environmental controls. Ever seen Erin Brokovitch? Remember hexavalent chromium, the nasty carcinogen that contaminated the groundwater? A good chunk of hexavalent chromium compounds are produced for the leather industry. Check the chromium level downriver from a third-world tannery, and you're pretty much guaranteed to find way more than safe levels in the fish. Random example:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V78-3T7HJS8-1N&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F14%2F1997&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1309316168&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1f2972d973ed77883cc5e3c8bc96a6fc

Putting leather on an eco-friendly car is like adding E.coli to the outflow of a wastewater treatment plant.

[evnow]

So are you a vegetarian or what? Even if you eat plants you are still killing and eating living things...

So are you a cat eater or what ?

The moral of the story is that everyone has a right to have their own moral compass in these matters without someone asking whats wrong with them.

My eating habits, btw, are none of your concern.

[SEGsby]

Life eats life, and has for billions of years on this tiny blue dot...

However, I don't personally want the hides of dead animals used to line the interior of any car (EV or otherwise) I drive, for a number of reasons...

1. It is generally heavier than cloth for the same surface area (including the bigger gauge stitching as well). Not a wise choice for an EV.

2. Toxic materials like Chromium are used in the tanning of leather

3. Being organic, Leather can mold up and is sensitive to humidity. It is sometimes sprayed with fungicides to prevent decomposition. These additional toxins have lead to one of the biggest UK compensation claims against a Chinese leather supplier:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/3547273/Toxic-leather-armchair-kills-father-son-and-cat-family-claims.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1022376/At-1-000-people-suffer-horrific-burns-toxic-leather-sofas.html

4. Poor Wear Characteristics when compared to typical upholstery: Cracking, peeling, stretching, poor color stability, staining, sagging, etc.

[Schrodinger]

Never have been a fan of leather seating. SEGsby raised some points I had not considered, and Karen's points on environmental impact are important to me, but secondarily.

The primary reason I dislike leather is that it gets entirely too hot in the summer, and I dislike sticking to my seat.

:jumping0010:

//Mid 80s already.
//Summer is going to suck.

[evmavin]

Somehow I think the leaf wil not have leather do to cost regardless of the other green related EV factors. There are also green synthetic products that are nicer and more practical.

[SlowSRT4]

Somehow I think the leaf wil not have leather do to cost regardless of the other green related EV factors. There are also green synthetic products that are nicer and more practical.
Alcantara, but it is more expensive.

[evmavin]

Alcantara, but it is more expensive.


Not true, Chia cover.

[SEGsby]

...

Putting leather on an eco-friendly car is like adding E.coli to the outflow of a wastewater treatment plant.

Yup. Agreed.

[jhm614]

Putting leather on an eco-friendly car is like adding E.coli to the outflow of a wastewater treatment plant.

Dang it. I hate to hear this about leather... I like-like leather seats! Oh well, live and learn. I guess I can live with cloth or some such.

[NeilBlanchard]

Have you wondered about using chromium to cure leather, and why it is that many leather making factories only employ old men?

Tiny hint: the cheapest way to make leather is not very green, and it certainly ain't safe for the humans involved...

[JimmyDreams]

Change cow to some other animal - like cat - and try the question again.

I don't get your point?

I LOVE my cat-fur steering wheel cover and California Condor-head gear shift knob! I think it ties the ivory a/c and heater control knobs together. But I'm still on the fence about keeping my baby sealskin dashboard UV protector. I think it picks up too much dust.

[KarenRei]

Also, there are some eagles under the floorboards, no? ;)

[SlowSRT4]

Haha! Very funny. ;)

Personally I don't think it's my problem or concern to worry about workers in 3rd world countries that are really old and sent to leather factories to die.

A lot of people like leather, and in cars it is usually considered a higher-end feature and praised, rather than spat on. However I do agree that a car specifically trying to appeal to a green audience should only have leather optional.

Sorry this thread got off topic. I'm now off to hunt endangered wildlife like cows and chickens to outfit my car. :doublethumbs:

[evnow]

Haha! Very funny. ;)

Personally I don't think it's my problem or concern to worry about workers in 3rd world countries that are really old and sent to leather factories to die.

Haha! Very funny. ;)

I guess you support slavery as well.

[Matthijs]

Or I will do a world tour with my Leaf and "Upgrade" my interior with some Snow Leopard skin from China. What do I care if they die out. China has enough stock anyway.

[SlowSRT4]

Haha! Very funny. ;)

I guess you support slavery as well.
While I appreciate your altruism, just because there is some problem or wrongdoing someplace in the world, and I am not actively trying to correct it, does not mean I support it.

There was a Dilbert episode about this argument. Dilbert was explaining about how donating to charity does not make you a better person than someone who doesn't, it just makes you feel less guilty. If you were really trying to help, you would donate all your money and not spend any of it on luxuries for yourself. The episode explains in more detail than I can remember, definitely worth a watch on Netflix instant streaming. :character0026:

Dilbert drives an EV1, incidentally. ;)

[jhm614]

Especially try to avoid the 3rd world Soylent Leather (tm). I have heard that it is really bad Karma to have your car seats made out of it.

[evnow]

While I appreciate your altruism, just because there is some problem or wrongdoing someplace in the world, and I am not actively trying to correct it, does not mean I support it.

I don't think you got it at all.

My response was for the original rant of "whats wrong with you people". There is absolutely nothing wrong with people who don't like leather - but people who think there is something wrong are rather narrow minded.

BTW, I have mixed feelings about leather. While it may use bad environmental practices - it does provide employment for a lot of poor folk in the developing world ("3rd world" is so condescending).

[Telchar]

Also, there are some eagles under the floorboards, no? ;)

And yet, the Tesla has so much more eagle. It saddens me to think of you missing out.

Edit: Whatever happened to the idea of having seats made of some kind of mesh stretched over a frame? I don't see any glaring problems with it, yet I've never heard of these in a car.

[SEGsby]

Stretched mesh over a tubular frame??? Heard of it being used in tiny French cars, but never seen it.

[KarenRei]

And yet, the Tesla has so much more eagle. It saddens me to think of you missing out.

Hehe ;)

[Ardie3301]

Stretched mesh over a tubular frame??? Heard of it being used in tiny French cars, but never seen it.

I can't really see a glorified lawn chair actually passing the stringent DOT specifications, not to mention their crashworthiness tests.

-- Ardie
Well, at least they would be ventilated.

[NeilBlanchard]

I've seen thin mesh seats in several concept cars; like the Toyota CH-FT:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WgNdnEDLqQg/0.jpg
http://img.youtube.com/vi/1tBQ7IXRJn4/0.jpg

Think Aeron chairs (http://www.hermanmiller.com/DotCom/jsp/designResources/imgSearchResults.jsp?prodId=8)?

[randyd]

I can't really see a glorified lawn chair actually passing the stringent DOT specifications, not to mention their crashworthiness tests.

Crashworthyness tests? Bah! That's just an engineering problem. I am pretty sure it's the marketing hurdle that prevents mesh seats from making it into mainstream vehicles. That's why (for a little while, at least) I was hoping my 2e would have mesh seats as an option, or as an aftermarket option.

Does anybody make mesh car seats as an aftermarket option? I have looked but not found any.

[KarenRei]

I don't see why having foam filler in your seats or not would determine whether or not you pass crash testing...

[Telchar]

Think Aeron chairs (http://www.hermanmiller.com/DotCom/jsp/designResources/imgSearchResults.jsp?prodId=8)?[/QUOTE]

Exactly, something like that. If they're good enough for ritzy offices I don't see why they're not good enough for cars. I could really see that ~4 inches of extra legroom for the passengers being nice, too.

[SlowSRT4]

Think Aeron chairs (http://www.hermanmiller.com/DotCom/jsp/designResources/imgSearchResults.jsp?prodId=8)?

Exactly, something like that. If they're good enough for ritzy offices I don't see why they're not good enough for cars. I could really see that ~4 inches of extra legroom for the passengers being nice, too.
Not with kids in the back it wouldn't. Their kicks would pierce directly to your spine. :scared0011:

[Telchar]

That's the beauty of it! You sell a thin hard plastic shield for the back of the seat as a $500 option. Or maybe a needle that comes out the back of the back seats and injects the kid with valium.

[PatQ562]

Not with kids in the back it wouldn't. Their kicks would pierce directly to your spine.
Omit the back seat! Aptera's thought of everything!