Something slightly different...

[Antjel]

Ok I've been a creeper guys and finally joined to throw a little out there to chat about.

First off I really like the Aptera design like much of you I am really hoping something will come of it and don't know what the future holds now. But as my topic says I can't speculate and don't want to read another thread about the frustration.

So here is some thoughts and questions I had in general about these EV start ups and I will use Aptera as an example because after all I am on the ApteraForum.

Like someone has stated before for any start up profitability is a major concern early where a more veteran car company like Honda, Toyota, can take a loss in the beginning to just get the car out there.
For the Aptera a new innovative design, aerodynamic, 3 wheels, electric. Funding is critical to the advancement of this product. I often wondered when I see a company try to start like this why it doesn't try to become profitable early by releasing an ICE version. Hear me out now...an EV for the masses is the ultimate goal but a company needs capital to fund their cause. It would seem to me that releasing with an ICE version with 45mpg or higher first would do the following :
Expedite the first release date
Simplify production
Get the model on the road
Build branding
Generate capital that could be used for fixing the body design and finalizing the electric / hybrid model.

I see this a lot with start ups where the first product has to be the final product. Maybe if the took a lesson from software development and the rest of the auto industry they would see it's much more profitable to release a lesser model first.

Now let's say they still don't have the capital to produce even an ICE model, why not partner with a veteran motorcycle company? Can-Am has the 3 wheel Spyder, they are a proven company to succeed in taking the risk with a new and innovative design, they might be interested in releasing an enclosed Spyder aka Aptera. We know at least they would know how to market the vehicle.

Aptera is more than an EV - it is rethinking A LOT of what a car should/can be. It doesn't have to be everything in one swing. An enclosed 3 wheel vehicle is a motorcycle...or in other words car pool friendly no HOV stickers required. That alone will sell the car to SoCal commuters. Get them on the road for a year and they aren't as shocking anymore to the public. The unusual becomes the usual and greener models become more mainstream which means more customers, more revenue, more success.

It has really been a surprise to me that this forum is not whining about how we are waiting an extra year to trade in our ICE Aptera for our EV Aptera and that we can only whine about another start up tanking due to lack of business sense.

Last thoughts I know it's really hard (as some of my comments still slipped in above) but hoping this thread can stick to ideas that can successfully launch a new vehicle (maybe if were lucky it will help the Aptera folks out) as opposed to our standard lists of frustration and disappointment of forum late.

[aptera1213]

A gas Aptera first would be a fine idea. Though I don't know if it would come any quicker than an EV Aptera.

Having both out at the same time would be a great idea though. A less than 25 grand model and a 30 grand model would help start up sales. Having a long distance highway driver and a city driver also seems nice. Opens up the car to different drivers than currently are interested.

But all the things delaying the EV Aptera would also be delaying an ICE Aptera. The body redesign, the molds being moved to Michigan, no capital.

I don't think the batteries (other than cost) are the start up issue.

Joining with Can-Am would be interesting...not sure what their capital is. But it seems Aptera isn't looking for a partner??

I still want Apple or Google to buy Aptera. But that is a crazy dream of mine.

Of course Apple and Google are going after each other right now pretty hard. If we could start a rumor at Apple that Google was going to buy Aptera, and then start a rumor at Google that Apple was going to buy Aptera, well maybe we can trick one of them into doing it :)

Good Post. Thanks for changing from "creeper guy" to posting guy ;)

Gavin

PS Maybe if the took a lesson from software development and the rest of the auto industry they would see it's much more profitable to release a lesser model first.

I totally agree. One: cars are becoming more and more like computers. Learn from the computer people. Two: Aptera could have released the PP6 late last year (gas and electric probably). Sell it for a couple of years while making changes and then sell the new and improved Aptera PPX in 2011 or 2012. Just like Toyota did with the Prius. A good car to prove a concept and then a better car to kill the competition.

[palmer_md]

Just strike a deal with Bombardier and put their motor in the latest Aptera body and I'll buy one tommorow to start giving them some feedback. Hopefully my feedback about the vehicle will allow the development of the EV version to move along more quickly. I'm sure most everyone here would not mind purchasing an Aptera as a Beta tester.

[aptera1213]

I would be right behind you in line....

MMMMMM, Beta tester.....Gawd that would be fun.

Gavin

[Antjel]

Beta testing is .... dreamzzzz

[SEGsby]

Well, Byplug posted pics of a strange Aptera mule with odd cables hanging out of it not long ago.

Someone is still beta testing...


Beta testing is .... dreamzzzz

[Airgetlam]

So, in my mind there's a significant amount of design change between an ICE and a pure EV. There's significantly more heat/noise/vibration/ventilation that needs to be dealt with in the design for an ICE to be workable.

Of course, I'm not an automobile designer, either, and don't even know how much they considered this in the original design of the vehicle.

But I'm with you on the financial aspect. Seems to me that a half step towards the end result would put some dollars in the pocket, and help get them along the road to the full EV.

[Antjel]

So, in my mind there's a significant amount of design change between an ICE and a pure EV. There's significantly more heat/noise/vibration/ventilation that needs to be dealt with in the design for an ICE to be workable.

Of course, I'm not an automobile designer, either, and don't even know how much they considered this in the original design of the vehicle.

But I'm with you on the financial aspect. Seems to me that a half step towards the end result would put some dollars in the pocket, and help get them along the road to the full EV.

Exactly - and if they teamed up with say someone that already has a reverse trike or whatever you call it 3-wheeler like the Spyder you might be able to "borrow" that ICE and relative design to get something out there and fitted into the same size chassis as the Aptera. Of course the bugger would have the acceleration of the old geo metro, but I doubt any of us would care to get it on the road or it's proverbial foot in the door.

P.S. Did you hear we had a tornado touch down in Whittier? WTFBBQ!

[NeilBlanchard]

And it is raining lions and hyenas, too?

[PatQ562]

The idea of a "simpler faster-to-market" ICE powered Aptera must have crossed the founders' minds but I assume they had a vision of a clean, quiet and ultra-efficient vehicle based on EV propulsion that would really satisfy the average motorist, and thus have a chance to sell in high volumes and actually make an impact on energy use. You need a vision like this to sustain you as the reality of development sets in. Small gas motors tend to be noisy and somewhat short-lived, and they're really quite complex, especially with emission controls.

There should never be any doubt that a sleek car like the Aptera COULD work. We don't need a "proof of concept". We need proof of actual performance. So you really have to shoot at the real target. Half steps don't prove the case. Even setting aside the motivating vision of a better cleaner way, if a gas-powered Aptera caught on big, nay-sayers would start criticizing it if emission controls and safety were lacking.

When you think about it, most of the real-world problems of safe handling, collision protection, comfort, and refinement exist regardless of power train. That's where the bulk of the development cost will lie in any case. In fact, silent responsive EV power helps with the NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) issues that all decent cars must overcome, and it cuts the small talk regarding environmental impact.

So I believe the original vision was valid - that the time was right to combine the latest battery, motor and controller technology to power a sleek, responsive vehicle with better results than a basically non-existent low emission micro-ICE. Perhaps this assumption was optimistic but I can understand the need to really find out.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

An ICE in this car does have all the issues you mentioned and more. The EV variant is the best option with the challenge being the pack, safety and reliability of the chassis. The drive components are really a non-issue in the relative picture as motor/controller is not a challenge. After the build cost to produce is the other big issue to make it competitive and make sense.

[Antjel]

There should never be any doubt that a sleek car like the Aptera COULD work. We don't need a "proof of concept". Q

Agreed but this isn't a vehicle with say the following of a Civic. It's new in all aspects and the final model a full blown EV isn't going to be cheap. You need to sell some volume to get you too the point where you can afford to release your top of the line product. It's just how I've seen start ups become successful.
Knowing that the EV is your target destination I wouldn't reccommend designing an ICE for the Aptera more like looking for someone to buy the engine from. Maybe the makers of the SMART car or one of these Spyder trikes. Somebody has to have an engine that meets the emission requirements of a motorcycle and is small enough to get the car on the road to keep the company a float, building a fan base of consumers and funding the development of a future hybrid and EV. Just my thoughts...

[MarkTwain]

Even though the logic of ICE availbility/technology is mature vs electric powertrains, I'm pretty sure the emissions testing that an ICE or hybrid goes through is actually a much longer process than a ZEV.

I think Pat Q makes good points about the motivation being not only a vision of efficiency but one of a cleaner option. Although even at 100 miles on a charge, does rangephobia make the 2h a better first play even if it's a longer path to market?

[palmer_md]

Shortest path to market is the best play. 2e, 2h, 2g, 2d...

[wcabdefense]

I agree that a good product is better than a perfect dream. Once it is available, the shortcomings can be vetted and corrected. When the weaknesses are surfaced, the next version gets better.

[gistmarrs]

I think that Tesla took the quickest route to creating a new vehicle. They took a vehicle shell that they deemed to be sufficient and then converted it to an EV. While they did some mods to the shell, it was far quicker to make a few mods to something that they new could be purchased or made in relatively large numbers than to try and create a completely new vehicle that would need to go through the entire design process. The EV part is relatively easy to accomplish, hell there are hundreds of homemade EV's running around right now.

[RainCaster]

The EV part is relatively easy to accomplish, hell there are hundreds of homemade EV's running around right now.

That's true- I recall this one guy in SoCal (Steve Fambro I think his name was) who made six home-built electic trikes. Each one was better than the last.

So it seems that just about any simpleton can do it- it takes real genius to build them en masse.

[Antjel]

I guess I figured emission testing wouldn't be a big deal if you take a proven already tested engine and put it on the road. But who knows again i'm not in the auto industry.
My thinking if the body is what's selling the car get it out there now if an ICE won't speed up the launch then it's definitely off the drawing board. Although I feel if the hybrid is too far off it would be a nice choice for commuters that are just outside the 100mile round trip limitation. Using gas or not it will use less and get more cars on the road to build a following for the company.
There is only a couple thousand of us with real interest in the Aptera, but get 250 apteras on the road and you can grow the interest in the vehicle exponentially. If they can knock $10k off the price for getting a weak ICE in there all the more better or offer them as a lease to field test the chassis in real world conditions. That way Aptera can stick to their PR guns about going fully green, "This is just a stage to make sure we are giving the best vehicle we can give". With just 250 on the road for the first 3 months Aptera would be on every news and radio station either getting mocked or marveled. Then applying for the DOE at the same time they could ride the surge of fame into approval.

Shoot I would buy an ICE one if they offered me an EV upgrade in 2yrs. I could bring in my ICE and get the guts swapped out for an EV at half price.

All more fantasies for the EV that won't be available until my kids (don't have any yet) inherent my insight.

[randyd]

Although even at 100 miles on a charge, does rangephobia make the 2h a better first play even if it's a longer path to market?
No, because it is a longer path to market and Aptera is running out of money. The sooner you sell something, the sooner ALL of us (including your investors) will be happier.

[Antjel]

My last EV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dENBYI3j3eE