The Plug-in Prius option

[scottsim]

I know that there are some on this site considering the Plug-in Prius option, and there are many ways to do it. I have tried to maximize both the creature comforts and the EV range in my approach.

Base Car

2009 Toyota Prius (package 6), 6800mi: Price before tax/reg - $23488.

Leather seats, Navigation System, 6 disk changer, JBL Premium audio (9 speakers), integrated bluetooth phone, HID headlights...on and on. The car has a very tech feel to it.

The people at www.3prongpower.com will be doing an install of a 10KWh LiPO4 battery pack (40AH Thundersky) that will be installed under the back cargo floor. Battery management by this outfit: http://liionbms.com/php/index.php Price of the installed 10KHh system, including suspension upgrade, bumper plug is $11500, afer taxes it came to around $12475.

In terms of performance I can expect 40 miles of all electric EV range for city driving (that would be at a max speed of 52mph) and around 75mpg fuel economy on the highway, in mixed mode, 100+ mile range.

Driving the car home from the dealer on the highway (prob about 72mph ave), the performance screen was showing an average of about 55mpg, and that is stock, without the battery pack. I do believe it has regenerative braking.

For me, this will work for now, and allow several years for a more optimized EV to find its way to market. The install does not void the Toyota warranty in any way. In fact I purchased an additional 4 years of factory warranty for $1000. For a bit under 40K after all is done, I wind up with a plug-in solution.

Some sources of concern might be, no rebate, temperature stability of the pack unknown, current lack of a fast charger. Install scheduled in a few weeks, pics/review to follow.

[PatQ562]

Hopefully it's been thoroughly tested, and the ongoing warranty is encouraging, but I am surprised that the high-peak-power motors typical of hybrid systems can withstand prolonged operation on a larger battery. There's a big difference between a few minutes of "booster" power and almost an hour of pure electric power. But the proof's in the pudding I guess.

Pat Q

[scottsim]

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/autos/1001/gallery.greenest_cars/index.html

The only car beating the Prius in this review was the Honda GX, a CNG car. Prius has much higher MPG, and is easier to find fuel for.

This, without the conversion.

For any of you that cannot wait for a practical hybrid or EV (me) I am hoping that the 3prongpower conversion that I am scheduled for in a couple of days will be a reasonable alternative.

[byplug]

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/autos/1001/gallery.greenest_cars/index.html

The only car beating the Prius in this review was the Honda GX, a CNG car. Prius has much higher MPG, and is easier to find fuel for.

This, without the conversion.

For any of you that cannot wait for a practical hybrid or EV (me) I am hoping that the 3prongpower conversion that I am scheduled for in a couple of days will be a reasonable alternative.

Plug-in Conversions. Kim Adelman. Check this out also.
http://pluginconversions.com/picc_pressrelease61009.html

[scottsim]

Plug-in Conversions. Kim Adelman. Check this out also.
http://pluginconversions.com/picc_pressrelease61009.html

Yeah, the PICC conversions are highly rated...smaller battery pack but it replaces the NIMH pack instead of charging it.

[evdriver]

Yes, the PICC (Plug In Conversion Corp.) system is a very evolved system that beats all the other conversions on usability, EV-only freeway driving, suspension upgrade for heavier battery pack, etc. I am a low Aptera 2E reservation holder who converted my 2007 Prius with a PICC system last fall when I began to lose faith that Aptera would deliver on its promises to reservation holders. After 3,000 miles of driving the PHEV I am very pleased. Average MPG so far is above 180. This is because my daily driving routine is about 20 miles and I have plug-in capability at home and work. Most days the gas never turns on.

[scottsim]

Yes, the PICC (Plug In Conversion Corp.) system is a very evolved system that beats all the other conversions on usability, EV-only freeway driving, suspension upgrade for heavier battery pack, etc. I am a low Aptera 2E reservation holder who converted my 2007 Prius with a PICC system last fall when I began to lose faith that Aptera would deliver on its promises to reservation holders. After 3,000 miles of driving the PHEV I am very pleased. Average MPG so far is above 180. This is because my daily driving routine is about 20 miles and I have plug-in capability at home and work. Most days the gas never turns on.

Bravo!...great numbers!...This was all the basis that got me looking at the Prius conversions as an Aptera alternative. Without the charging infrastructure here yet, it just makes WAY more sense to not be range limited. The 2e was my choice in large part because it looked to be a year ahead of the 2h. Now after driving in the Prius (as is) I find it to be a very flexible machine.

[SlowSRT4]

I don't get it. What would I rather have, a Volt or a Prius? Answer seems obvious to me. The Volt is even cheaper than the Prius in this case. Plus you get the cell phone charging app and all the other cool tech, with a stronger electric motor.

[scottsim]

I don't get it. What would I rather have, a Volt or a Prius? Answer seems obvious to me. The Volt is even cheaper than the Prius in this case. Plus you get the cell phone charging app and all the other cool tech, with a stronger electric motor.

Well, a lot depends on how the real numbers work out for the Volt, after the first 30-40 miles...then we can compare.

Oh yeah...still nothing out.

[Rhodomel]

I don't get it. What would I rather have, a Volt or a Prius? Answer seems obvious to me. The Volt is even cheaper than the Prius in this case. Plus you get the cell phone charging app and all the other cool tech, with a stronger electric motor.
I'm hoping that the price of the Volt would be in the upper $20K after tax rebates. I'm also hoping that there would be mods to allow me to use the volt's generator as source of power when camping or when blackout or brownout.

For now it seems like I'm going with 1 volt and another non-chinese plug-in instead of Aptera. All this could change if by miracle Aptera motors starts producing the dream car.

[SlowSRT4]

Well, a lot depends on how the real numbers work out for the Volt, after the first 30-40 miles...then we can compare.

Oh yeah...still nothing out.
I have a feeling the Volt will stick to its launch schedule. :fighting0027:

I'm just saying I would have held out for a Volt. Seems to me that it would beat a converted Prius in just about every category. Yes, that is part assumption but so is going with a conversion right? 3prongpower system doesn't have as much testing and validation as the Volt system. Regardless, everything about the Volt will be known this year. :aptera:

[evdriver]

Comparing the Volt and converted plug-in Prius is more complicated than it's being represented here. That's because the Volt will be available in very limited supply in the first year or two and there won't be an affordable used market for these cars for at least three years. Let's compare the two.

I purchased my 2007 Prius used for $14,000. It is a super clean car that looks new inside and out. In fact, it's the nicest car I've ever purchased. The PICC conversion was $13,500. That's a subtotal of $27,500 plus taxes (9%) of $2,475 that bring the total out of pocket to $29,975. In April I will get a $1,500 tax rebate for the conversion that is part of the stimulus package. That bring the total net cost to $28,475.

Now the Volt. There is no fixed price on the Volt yet although most press I've read says it will be around $43,000. Like both the Mazda Miata and the Toyota Prius, when they were new and in short supply, dealers charged a premium for the few cars they had on the lot. Also, Chevy will go heavy on the leather, navigation, premium sound and other profitable options on the first run of cars because the early adopters will pay anything for these profitable add-ons. I suspect that the first 20,000 Volts (about 10 cars per dealership) will actually walk out the door at $50,000. Add 9% tax and you're up to $54,500. There will be a $7,500 tax credit from uncle sam which put the net cost at $46,500. That is a net cost of $18,000 more than the converted used Prius.

I'm not suggesting that converting a used Prius is for everyone, but saying the Volt "beats the Prius in every category" seems a bit broad when one major category for most people is price. Add to that the two year wait for a Volt and the converted Prius today looks pretty good.

[SlowSRT4]

Comparing the Volt and converted plug-in Prius is more complicated than it's being represented here. That's because the Volt will be available in very limited supply in the first year or two and there won't be an affordable used market for these cars for at least three years. Let's compare the two.

I purchased my 2007 Prius used for $14,000. It is a super clean car that looks new inside and out. In fact, it's the nicest car I've ever purchased. The PICC conversion was $13,500. That's a subtotal of $27,500 plus taxes (9%) of $2,475 that bring the total out of pocket to $29,975. In April I will get a $1,500 tax rebate for the conversion that is part of the stimulus package. That bring the total net cost to $28,475.

Now the Volt. There is no fixed price on the Volt yet although most press I've read says it will be around $43,000. Like both the Mazda Miata and the Toyota Prius, when they were new and in short supply, dealers charged a premium for the few cars they had on the lot. Also, Chevy will go heavy on the leather, navigation, premium sound and other profitable options on the first run of cars because the early adopters will pay anything for these profitable add-ons. I suspect that the first 20,000 Volts (about 10 cars per dealership) will actually walk out the door at $50,000. Add 9% tax and you're up to $54,500. There will be a $7,500 tax credit from uncle sam which put the net cost at $46,500. That is a net cost of $18,000 more than the converted used Prius.

I'm not suggesting that converting a used Prius is for everyone, but saying the Volt "beats the Prius in every category" seems a bit broad when one major category for most people is price. Add to that the two year wait for a Volt and the converted Prius today looks pretty good.
I wasn't comparing the Volt to a used Prius. A used Prius would make sense for a conversion if you could find one cheap. But I think the Volt would make more sense than buying a brand new Prius and then immediately converting it to be like the Volt. Why not just get the best setup straight from the factory if your plan is to buy new? :aptera:

[scottsim]

One, because it is not ready now...I got out of the mood for waiting here.

Two, it is not clear yet how much better the Volt set-up is, when compared to a well done Prius conversion.

[scottsim]

Here is a link to my just created blog...after more analysis will have more real-world numbers up: http://smilingdogsranch.com/priusblog/

http://smilingdogsranch.com/priusblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/DSC_00032.jpg

[scottsim]

My highway commute redone almost 5 times, hilly, 90% highway, average speed ~57mph. >76mpg for just over 100 miles.

The dash displays on my blog: www.smilingdogsranch.com/priusblog

After a few more tankfuls will post actual gas consumption. I do have a pure EV option, at a limiting speed of 52mph, I expect that the range under that condition will be 40-50mi.

[SEGsby]

That's the most aggressive pro-solar bumper sticker I've ever seen...

[scottsim]

That's the most aggressive pro-solar bumper sticker I've ever seen...

Indeed, had to have it....all tongue-in-cheek. :evilgrin0013:

You know, since the car is not going to have the "shock value" of the Aptera, it calls for something. Glad I stayed with white though...

[roflwaffle]

While I don't think the current PHEV kits/installs offered by companies are worthwhile due to really high costs, hybridinterfaces.ca offers a board that allows the driver to bypass onboard issues w/ adding extra/different batteries. A ~4kWh NiMH PHEV can be had for ~$3000 via used NiMH packs, and as long as the voltage is kept within the range of the stock pack, I think other cells can be used too. A ~10kWh LFP conversion, provided it would fit, would run ~$6k-$7k.

The downside would be no 50+mph EV only mode, but I'm not sure if EV only mode is even cost effective at those speeds because the ICE has to be spun up in order to avoid revving MG2(?) too high, which adds a lot of drag. ~350Wh/mile from the pack at ~60mph seems to be par for the course if the info from the Ewert video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfkvygFJZDk&feature=player_embedded) is correct. Toss in charging losses and that's approaching ~500Wh/mile at low highway speeds. W/ electricity at 10c/kWh that's 5c/mile from just electricity. A conventional prius is at ~6c/mile on gas, so with the cost of batteries included I don't think all electric highway speeds from a plug-in Prius are cost effective. City is fine, since the engine doesn't have to be spun over to keep MG2 healthy, incurring all the usual drag via friction/having it act as an air compressor.

[solardude]

lithium batteries with 10,000 charges? right on!

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/05/new-lithium-ion-battery-could-last-20-years-long-after-youve-b/

[SlowSRT4]

I think it is kind of funny how 3prongpower basically advises against what scottsim did (buying a brand new car for PHEV features):
Both Toyota and General Motors have announced plans to build PHEV vehicles. General Motors has a target date of November 2010 for their initial PHEV model to be on the road. Toyota has declared that they will only build 400 test vehicles in 2010 with a consumer product to follow based on market research. History has shown that product release dates often slip. At 3Prong Power, we feel this is too long to wait to do something about oil addiction. Many customers will not want to purchase an expensive brand new car to get PHEV features, they'd rather upgrade the car they already own.

Also the Voltec system appears to be more powerful than the 3prongpower system as it can hit over 100 mph in ICE-kill mode, and accelerate to 60 mph in approx 8.5 seconds. Plus you get the full $7500 tax credit.

[SlowSRT4]

Good thing you got the 09:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/09/officially-official-toyota-recalls-2010-prius-and-lexus-hs250h/

Of course, as the first comment on that article points out, there may still be other issues. :evilgrin0013:

[scottsim]

I think it is kind of funny how 3prongpower basically advises against what scottsim did (buying a brand new car for PHEV features):


Also the Voltec system appears to be more powerful than the 3prongpower system as it can hit over 100 mph in ICE-kill mode, and accelerate to 60 mph in approx 8.5 seconds. Plus you get the full $7500 tax credit.

Aside from the nasty recall of 2010 Prius', there are other reasons that using the 2009 made sense for me....By getting a low-mileage "used" 2009, I could better fund the conversion. The differences between Gen3 and Gen2 Prius, were really not that pronounced for me (though I would have loved the solar roof).

No argument for the Volt being more powerful...though I am betting that using the Volt, in ICE-kill, for fast line starts and >70mph will put a serious dent in EV range....Again, I am enjoying a minimum of 9-12 months before I could have been in a Volt.

[lapwing]

Good thing you got the 09:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/09/officially-official-toyota-recalls-2010-prius-and-lexus-hs250h/

Of course, as the first comment on that article points out, there may still be other issues. :evilgrin0013:

I have an 07 Prius, and the only issue I have ever had is a tendency for the brakes to back off way too long after a small bump, while braking hard at any speed.

There is one particular offramp on the I5 with a raised expansion joint. It's a downhill bump, perhaps 2", momentary loss of traction (hardly noticed it in the Jetta).
Yellow traction control light flashes on the dash. Braking backs off ABS for about 1-2 seconds, before ABS resumes. How long, depends on how slippy it is, and it rains often here in Oregon. Once, when I left braking a little late, a bump caught me with no braking for just long enough to end up 15' into the intersection. The car completely backed off the ABS for me, even though I was mashing the pedal to the floor. No choice involved here. The brakes let go until the traction control, and the ABS give it back. I have no detailed idea how it works. It can be unnerving at times.

Luckily no harm was done. I adjusted my driving style to accommodate the Prius "feature" after the service department told me it was perfectly normal. I do the same when it snows.

My analysis is that there is possibly a software issue, where the momentary loss in traction, interacting with some sort of traction control, causes ABS to back off to much and too long on the brakes. However, my opinion is highly subjective, as it's impossible to know just how much of an issue is a function of tires or roadway, and how much is suspension or software.

I no longer drive like I'm 16, so it's not been an issue, but the first time it happened, I had a very bad feeling, and I remain "careful" of provoking that yellow light. I would not call the car unsafe in any way though. I think it far better than my previous Jetta III 2.0L in every way.

After all the press coverage on recalls, I finally realized that here was a place to "complain" officially about these issues at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov

Hell, I would have reported the Jetta III window winder wiring door fire, or the failed hood latch, or the every year, dismantle and replace the door lock toggle, etc. etc. had I known.