Is Hybrid Technologies legitimate?

[RoxChkPlusOny]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/21/new-york-08-preview-hybrid-technologies-to-show-off-08-model/

They seem to have a well-established company, is publicly-traded, and has demonstrated its vehicles a few times before. I'm just surprised that there are so many vehicles offered through them, and all of them currently available to the market (volume notwithstanding).

Has anyone ever followed this company enough to make a risk assessment regarding doing business with them? Why is it that I've not heard about them until now? It seems pretty clear that they've been in the news. Also, anyone have numbers on how many units of anything they've sold? I count maybe 1 taxi and 1 Smart car to someone in North Texas.

Finally, I think it's curious that they're named Hybrid Technologies when their offerings appear to be all-electric. Perhaps they changed directions after their inception and naming?

[KarenRei]

Well, they pass the "smell test" to me. I mainly look for A) confirmation from respectable third parties, B) claims in line with existing technology, and C) prices in line with claimed offerings. In all three of those cases, they pass, although I'd like to see a lot more of (A).

[RoxChkPlusOny]

Agreed. They've made news and magazines have checked them out, and they're even at auto shows, but somehow I want more (A) as well, like volumes data from a third party. For (B), there's surprisingly little information about what Li-Ion batteries they're using, and given the youtube video I saw recently posted by IanBruce of VentureOne, I really want to know. They also haven't been picking up the phone, though that doesn't necessary correlate with the quality of their product. Finally, (C) seems about right - 40-60k depending on the vehicle you're getting, with reasonable ranges and performance. The Yaris conversion is by far the most crazily priced, but perhaps that shows up in its acceleration stats (being far behind the other offerings).

[KarenRei]

Yeah -- the big red flags start showing when you see companies advertising conversion cars with 50kWh battery packs that are rated for thousands of cycles, at a price under $30k, with one or two "customers" and no media review. SparkEV, LionEV, I'm looking in your general direction... ;)

It's that kWh number that you really need to keep an eye on; safe, long-life li-ion batteries don't come cheap, and there's no way around it. AltairNano's "Nanosafe" titanate batteries are stated at about $2/Wh, and bulk LiPo's are something like 1/2 to 1/5th that expensive. Both should drop a lot in price with mass production, but mass production's not going to happen until EVs are mass produced. Until then, if it's affordable, it better have only 10-20kWh of batteries, or it's probably a scam (and even if it's that low, the rest of the reported stats better be affordable given how much will be spent on batteries). And the range figures should be in line with however many kWh of batteries it reportedly has, combined with its weight, drag coefficient, and cross sectional area. I.e., if they say they're converting a Hummer and claim that 10kWh of batteries give it a 200 mile range, that too is a scam ;) 10kWh of batteries would only take a Hummer 10-20 miles.

Of course, just because a company reports realistic stats doesn't make them legit. But if the stats raise red flags....

[RoxChkPlusOny]

I just recently got some more correspondence from Hybrid Technologies, even getting to chat with a representative on the phone. Here is what I picked up...

Everything they claimed on the website and more. I found out that the LiV WISE, though based off a 4-seat Yaris, will only have two seats on account of the space needed for the battery, etc. The Surge (PT Cruiser) is the only available 4-seat model from their lineup. They also have a very similar pay model as SparkEV, where you pay the 50% deposit and then the rest as they start the conversion. That made me a little nervous, but I also don't have any suggestions as to how made-to-order can be done any better. I looked up their address online and found a different company, an advertising agency, but the woman naturally assured me that they don't share the space with anyone as this is also the conversion facility (not just an office). Videos of the conversion facility help a little with the believability.

Anyway, I'd love your input, KarenRei. I'm strongly considering going for this, but I simply don't want to get cheated out by a bad business, you know? At least they're publicly-traded, have videos to back up what they're doing, and all that. The woman was very helpful in answering my questions, and I was especially comforted by the dose of reality she offered with the WISE model. Oh, and they've sold and shipped a few models already (smart ev at a wal-mart I believe), and have a number of other vehicles on their production line.

[KarenRei]

Wait, they don't start the conversion until you pay them? That's... suspicious. There's no stock of finished vehicles?

[c0mp13x]

That does sound suspicious. A fancy website and lots of EV press makes Hybrid Technologies look good... but even in the AutoblogGreen article Rox linked, they had a hard time getting a straight answer out of the company about how many vehicles they have actually produced/sold.

I can't imagine giving tens of thousands of dollars to a company where I can't even drive or inspect what I'm paying for. I understand the business model of vehicle conversions, but a company as big as this company says they are, should have the capital to build several of each conversion they offer so the customer knows what they are getting.

What if you don't find the vehicle performance acceptable? EV stats are notorious for being overstated under real-world driving conditions. What if the fit and finish of the conversion are not acceptable to you? These would be tough things to negotiate after they already have all your money. Be careful and let us know how it goes...

:confused:

[KarenRei]

I wouldn't do it, personally. If you need a low-cost four-door, I'd wait for an MiEV. If they don't sell them in the US, import one from Japan (As an Aptera purchaser who doesn't live in CA; I can attest that there's always ways around rules ;) ). I think importing generally runs a few thousand dollars. The MiEV is only to cost, what, $24-25k? So you're looking at Aptera-level prices.

[drivin98]

Nissan is also promising to bring (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/07/ghosn-promises-america-an-electric-car-for-2010/) an electric car (probably similiar to the Mixim) to America in 2010.

[DDB]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/21/new-york-08-preview-hybrid-technologies-to-show-off-08-model/

They seem to have a well-established company, is publicly-traded, and has demonstrated its vehicles a few times before. I'm just surprised that there are so many vehicles offered through them, and all of them currently available to the market (volume notwithstanding).

Has anyone ever followed this company enough to make a risk assessment regarding doing business with them? Why is it that I've not heard about them until now? It seems pretty clear that they've been in the news. Also, anyone have numbers on how many units of anything they've sold? I count maybe 1 taxi and 1 Smart car to someone in North Texas.

Finally, I think it's curious that they're named Hybrid Technologies when their offerings appear to be all-electric. Perhaps they changed directions after their inception and naming?

There are two ways I think may of us skeptics can be at ease. One, ask for referrals of customers who actually paid list price for a product. I think five minutes on the phone you'll know whether you're talking to the real deal. Second, before putting money down (and I do think a couple grand is reasonable, especially in light of the Tesla $100K deposit days), what about asking for an escrow agent? HT shouldn't balk at that.

On another note, KarenRei, on other forums, has pointed me in the direction of the MiEv, which isn't a bad choice. I think I post under Dave or DaveB or something like that. Anyhow, for those that don't want to wait and wonder, HT may be the way to go because ALLEGEDLY, they are here and now.

[joswela162]

This company is just a scam. They have stolen millions of dollars from investors. They have changed their name at least three times that I know of just avoid these type of discussions. Look up Whistler Investments, Hybrid Technologies, and EV Innovations, their new name. Also see their newest car that is obviously a knock off of the Aptera.

[speculawyer]

Wait, they don't start the conversion until you pay them? That's... suspicious. There's no stock of finished vehicles?
Well, although they are trying to become something bigger, they mainly just seem to be a conversion shop. And that would seem pretty typical for a conversion shop . . . give them a donor vehicle and a payment for them to get started. In this case, you give them a big down payment so they can buy the conversion donor and get started.

[speculawyer]

This company is just a scam. They have stolen millions of dollars from investors. They have changed their name at least three times that I know of just avoid these type of discussions. Look up Whistler Investments, Hybrid Technologies, and EV Innovations, their new name. Also see their newest car that is obviously a knock off of the Aptera.

They may be a scam or they may just be a bad business that has largely failed. Sometimes it is not easy to tell the difference . . . it just comes down to intent. Did the people truly intend to create a successful business and fail? Or did they just intend to pay themselves well and make a half-hearted attempt at the business knowing it would fail eventually.

I don't know enough about this situation to make any kind of judgment. But people that have lost investment money may view it as a scam whereas customers that paid for and got conversions may view it as legit.

[barrettlyon]

These guys are bad news! I did buy a car from them, I wrote an article about how that went (not good). If you're thinking about investing in this company, do not do it. If you're thinking about buying a car from them, you're better off donating your money to charity.

Be careful with these people!

[barrettlyon]

The car I got was to go 120+ miles per charge and to charge in 8 hours max. It actually ended up going about 70 miles on a 10 to 20 hour charge.

[barrettlyon]

Yes, they are a scam.. they just changed their name again from EV Innovations to Li-Ion Motors Corporation. I bet they plan on issuing a bunch of new press and stock in order to continue to suck money out of the shareholders.

[barrettlyon]

Well, although they are trying to become something bigger, they mainly just seem to be a conversion shop. And that would seem pretty typical for a conversion shop . . . give them a donor vehicle and a payment for them to get started. In this case, you give them a big down payment so they can buy the conversion donor and get started.

You give them 50% down, which is not all that insane, however, when they say the car is finished and ask for the other 50% and then tell you it's not ready. That's pretty fraudulent.

[barrettlyon]

Learn more about these people here:

http://www.blyon.com/blog/index.php/2009/12/31/ev_innovations_crooks/